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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

Old 24th Oct 2020, 07:59
  #4721 (permalink)  
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As "we're all in this together "......catchy little soundbite , but complete bolleaux as we know, as our MP's feel there's no money needed to feed children, presumably they will also feel their proposed £3200 pay rise can't be justified either and will decline to accept it ( this suggestion doing the rounds elsewhere btw ) " every little helps " after all.

Out of interest, there were quite a few strident Boris supporters on here about this time last year, and after December.....so it would be interesting to learn, this question being based purely on pragmatism you understand, if they still have the same adulation for Boris ?

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 24th Oct 2020 at 08:26.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 09:38
  #4722 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Salisbury, Wiltshire
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I might have to go slightly against the grain here. I am ex teaching staff and dealt with a lot of families that the more you did for them, the more they expected and the less they did. . As a school, we regularly provided extras for disadvantaged children; uniform, clothes for home, equipment, extra food (out of our own pockets) and even went as far as purchasing a washing machine because some of them were sent in so filthy. Quite a few of parents eventually started to assume that it was part of the service and we would always be doing this for their children!

If things are provided free, they cease to have a value. Perhaps if they made a small token donation towards their children’s food that might be a compromise?
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 10:36
  #4723 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding is that this isn't existing businesses grabbing the money, but fraud by organised criminals, who have been stealing identities, registering fake companies and getting large sums of money out of the government
An interesting 'understanding', but *unsubstantiated*. Not sure of the relevance of the argument, either, unless stealing 2 Billion is acceptable, if it's done by 'organised criminals', a group term which could encompass some unlikely bedfellows! Would, for instance, a foiled attempt to defraud the taxpayer of £40 million in tax, count as 'criminal organisation', or just an inadvertent 'slip' in pursuit of dining table companionship? Was it only the criminal organisations which claimed the furlough pay-out while requiring their employees to continue working?

*I would not count 'information' originating in the pages of our esteemed 'Fourth Estate' as substantiating anything save their own prejudices!*
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 10:53
  #4724 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
My understanding is that this isn't existing businesses grabbing the money, but fraud by organised criminals, who have been stealing identities, registering fake companies and getting large sums of money out of the government
An interesting 'understanding', but *unsubstantiated*. Not sure of the relevance of the argument, either, unless stealing 2 Billion is acceptable, if it's done by 'organised criminals', a group term which could encompass some unlikely bedfellows! Would, for instance, a foiled attempt to defraud the taxpayer of £40 million in tax, count as 'criminal organisation', or just an inadvertent 'slip' in pursuit of dining table companionship? Was it only the criminal organisations which claimed the furlough pay-out while requiring their employees to continue working?

*I would not count 'information' originating in the pages of our esteemed 'Fourth Estate' as substantiating anything save their own prejudices!*

The evidence that criminal gangs have been defrauding the loan scheme seems compelling, as does that involving identity theft in order to enable it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54366178

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54187581

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53773404

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54432916

Bounce back loans: Taxpayers may lose £26bn on unpaid loans

Up to 60% of emergency pandemic loans made under the Bounce Back scheme may never be repaid, a report by the government's spending watchdog says.
The National Audit Office (NAO) said taxpayers could lose as much as £26bn, from fraud, organised crime or default.
The lending scheme carried lighter checks than others and was aimed at small businesses unable to access other pandemic funding support.
A recent BBC investigation revealed how fraudsters were using the loan system.
Many of those affected will have no idea their names have been used until repayment letters begin arriving in early summer.
One of the victims spoken to by the BBC, Mark Telling, said he was worried "to death" to discover a company set up in his name by a criminal had "borrowed" £50,000 from the bail-out scheme.
The BBC also spoke to Sue Burden, who had also found her identity had been stolen to set up a bogus company to access the scheme. She said she had gone "from tears to anger... now I'm going to be scared to do anything".
The BBC reported last week that the government was warned back in May that the scheme was at "very high risk of fraud" from "organised crime".
The government said it has tried to minimise fraud through lenders' background checks.

This quote is from the head of the PAC (a Labour MP), confirming the NAO view that organised criminals are behind much of the fraud:

Meg Hillier, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, said the loans had been a vital lifeline for many businesses.

But she added that "the government estimates that up to 60% of the loans could turn bad - this would be a truly eye-watering loss of public money".
"The bounce back loan scheme got money into the hands of small businesses quickly, and will have stopped some from going under.
"But the scheme's hasty launch means criminals may have helped themselves to billions of pounds at the taxpayer's expense.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 10:55
  #4725 (permalink)  
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As "we're all in this together "......catchy little soundbite , but complete bolleaux as we know, as our MP's feel there's no money needed to feed children
Its not that - its just a bloody stupid idea for a way to do it.

Remember the uproar when they suggested all schools should serve hot meals? WhY? because many schools don't have the kitchens, dining rooms or staff to cook or supervise it. So they brought in vouchers.

Now, vouchers themselves are a lousy idea for several reasons. Firstly they stigmatise the user. Secondly many small shops break the rules and swop them for non-food items - at a substantial mark down on their face value. Thirdly the issue is bureaucratic and expensive. Fourthly many are issued to those who don't need them, whilst many who do (home-schoolers and others who don't attend, infants etc) don't get them.

If there is a case for extra funds to feed children at home, then alternate means such as supplements to UC (already increased by £20 a week at the start of lockdown in April), children's allowance etc. That puts cash straight into the pocket without any stigma in the shops.

Its one of those great public issues where the government is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't at the moment (it won't get any credit for doing so now), but it would add just another distortion to a benefits system where the aim is to simply if it.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 11:22
  #4726 (permalink)  
 
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From the Independent:
A Conservative MP is facing calls to apologise amid claims he stigmatised working class families in a row over Marcus Rashford’s free school meals campaign.

Ben Bradley, one of hundreds of Tory MPs to vote against providing free food during the school holidays, replied to a tweet in which another user described the programme as "£20 cash direct to a crack den and a brothel".

In his post, which has since been removed, Mr Bradley wrote: "That's what FSM (free school meal) vouchers in the summer effectively did..."

His comments came after hundreds of businesses and local councils announced they will feed poor pupils this half-term if the government will not.

Another Tory MP told cafes and others helping hungry children next week that she hoped they “will not be seeking any further government support”.

Selaine Saxby, the Tory MP for North Devon and a former teacher, also said on social media she was “delighted our local businesses have bounced back so much after lockdown they are able to give away food for free”.
While MP's can spend a lttle of their £3,300 pay rise on their own taxpayers-subsidised food.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 11:29
  #4727 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
Unless it is fake news, it would seem the Gloucestershire police don't have enough to do......
Not fake news it would seem. I can understand the Welsh closing the boarder (to keep the English out), what I can't understand is why the Gloucester police are doing the Welsh governments dirty work . Do the good people of Gloucester realy want to pay for this, or are the Welsh government funding them to do it? Surely the Gloucester police would be better employed catching the criminals at large in Gloucester and let the Welsh police manage their own border?
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 12:00
  #4728 (permalink)  
 
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And from the Times, it appears that not all Conservatives agree with ORAC:

Tory councils turn against PM in battle for free school meals

Boris Johnson was under pressure to back down in his fight with the gootballer Marcus Rashford as Tory councils joined a nationwide revolt against his refusal to fund free school meals at half-term...
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 12:43
  #4729 (permalink)  
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A Conservative MP is facing calls to apologise amid claims he stigmatised working class families in a row over Marcus Rashford’s free school meals campaign.

Ben Bradley, one of hundreds of ToryMPs to vote against providing free food during the school holidays, replied to a tweet in which another user described the programme as "£20 cash direct to a crack den and a brothel".

In his post, which has since been removed, Mr Bradley wrote: "That's what FSM (free school meal) vouchers in the summer effectively did..."

His comments came after hundreds of businesses and local councils announced they will feed poor pupils this half-term if the government will not.

Another Tory MP told cafes and others helping hungry children next week that she hoped they “will not be seeking any further government support”.


Selaine Saxby, the Tory MP for North Devon and a former teacher, also said on social media she was “delighted our local businesses have bounced back so much after lockdown they are able to give away food for free"

With acknowledgement to S.A for the original quote.....

Amazingly, both the (non) Tory MP's quoted in the above have now stated their remarks were "taken out of context "........erm, NO, the context was abundantly clear !
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 13:03
  #4730 (permalink)  
 
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I'm very much afraid that the party I joined and actively worked for, driving isolated and elderly voters to the polls, no longer exists. It has lost both its heart and its soul.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 13:30
  #4731 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I'm very much afraid that the party I joined and actively worked for, driving isolated and elderly voters to the polls, no longer exists. It has lost both its heart and its soul.
Lost it when IDS turned on the sick and disabled. They did not give ATOS(S) and still don't
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 13:45
  #4732 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I'm very much afraid that the party I joined and actively worked for, driving isolated and elderly voters to the polls, no longer exists. It has lost both its heart and its soul.
Sallyann1234
Totally with you on this, and told my local Tory MP the same, though to be honest we disagree on so much HS2, Brexit, etc there was not much chance I would return to the Tory fold, and definitely not for this bunch of incompetents.
Cheers
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 13:48
  #4733 (permalink)  
 
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And from this morning's news, the government doesn't want to stop at school meals in the parsimony stakes. They recently introduced a rule mandating schools to provide on-line learning for all pupils by the end of this month. Having promised schools that the government would provide lap tops for those families that can't afford them, they set up a system which schools could use to order the lap tops. (Is the government branching out into retail now?). With a week to go before the mandated on-line learning is to commence, the government has been contacting schools to tell them they may have to accept only 20% of the number of lap tops they need. Blimey! You could almost call that a U turn!
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 14:09
  #4734 (permalink)  
 
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And one related to both the UK government and Corvid 19 too, Money for areas finding themselves in Tier 3 measures:
We have heard, frequently, in recent days the refrain of how generous the offer of funds to the GMC and how the amounts involved are all pretty much the same across the various regions.
Reading the BBC's item re Warrington going into Tier 3, it appears that the payments worked out like this:
Warrington Population 210,000 £5.9million or £28.09 per head
Liverpool Population 1.5 million £44 million or £29.33 per head
Lancashire Population 1.5 million £42 million or £28.00 per head
Greater Manchester Population 2.8 million £60 million or £21.43 per head.
As Andy Burnham was originally asking for £70million, the cost would have been £25.00 per head. Still lower than all the other affected regions, so why all the fighting, pouting and squealing from Johnson & co? Burnham was not asking for anything outrageous, just what he reckoned it was going to cost the region to support all those businesses etc directly affected by the new measures.
I really look forward to the day we have Andy Burnham living in 10 Downing St!
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 15:31
  #4735 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
And one related to both the UK government and Corvid 19 too, Money for areas finding themselves in Tier 3 measures:
We have heard, frequently, in recent days the refrain of how generous the offer of funds to the GMC and how the amounts involved are all pretty much the same across the various regions.
Reading the BBC's item re Warrington going into Tier 3, it appears that the payments worked out like this:
Warrington Population 210,000 £5.9million or £28.09 per head
Liverpool Population 1.5 million £44 million or £29.33 per head
Lancashire Population 1.5 million £42 million or £28.00 per head
Greater Manchester Population 2.8 million £60 million or £21.43 per head.
As Andy Burnham was originally asking for £70million, the cost would have been £25.00 per head. Still lower than all the other affected regions, so why all the fighting, pouting and squealing from Johnson & co? Burnham was not asking for anything outrageous, just what he reckoned it was going to cost the region to support all those businesses etc directly affected by the new measures.
I really look forward to the day we have Andy Burnham living in 10 Downing St!
The figures above apart from Manchester include test/trace support etc plus business support, your Manchester figures only include business support, so need £22 million adding, which means every is getting near enough the same per head.

Which begs the question as to what the government thought they where negotiating if it is a fixed formula! Much more likely the plan was to share the blame with the local Labour mayors, but I think that has rather backfired!
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 15:31
  #4736 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I'm very much afraid that the party I joined and actively worked for, driving isolated and elderly voters to the polls, no longer exists. It has lost both its heart and its soul.
You have my sympathy. Until April I felt in exactly the same position in regard to Labour. The answer of course is to replace an ignorant under performing leader who is out of step with the electorate on everything apart from ( for a moment in time) Brexit.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 16:09
  #4737 (permalink)  
 
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Do these families that need food provided outside of the school day not get child benefit then? Or is that money being spent on other items rather than essentials such as food? Bearing in mind that CB isn’t means tested and is on top of other benefits/income and that 39 out of 52 weeks these pupils are in school and therefore being provided with free lunches.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 16:14
  #4738 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by annakm View Post
Do these families that need free school meals not get child benefit then? Or is that money being spent on other items rather than essentials such as food? Bearing in mind that CB isn’t means tested and is on top of other benefits/income.
Children on FSM are eligible via low income parents; or those on benefits. It's an extra means-tested benefit. It's a 'good' benefit for poor kids, cos the money cannot be usurped. In chaotic families, it might be the only decent food the child gets.

CG.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 16:21
  #4739 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
Children on FSM are eligible via low income parents; or those on benefits. It's an extra means-tested benefit. It's a 'good' benefit for poor kids, cos the money cannot be usurped. In chaotic families, it might be the only decent food the child gets.

CG.
Thank you. We have a different system here so I appreciate you clarifying it.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 16:23
  #4740 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
Children on FSM are eligible via low income parents; or those on benefits. It's an extra means-tested benefit. It's a 'good' benefit for poor kids, cos the money cannot be usurped. In chaotic families, it might be the only decent food the child gets.CG.
Quite, the parents can't spend it on fags and booze instead of feeding their kids. And don't think it doesn't happen, I know a family where the mother who has custody does exactly that. They often turn up at the grandparents somewhat hungry because there is no food in their house and there doesn't seem to be anything any one can do stop the mother behaving like this.


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