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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

Old 6th Oct 2020, 17:55
  #4541 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
And you think Gove could win an election?
Ah, at present, he doesn't have to be concerned with this technicality as there's still another four years left. All he has to do is slither into No10, get the portrait on the wall, and..... bingo ! immortalised for ever.

However, it's not quite that simple. True, there's not exactly a surplus of contenders for PM but don't rule out Hunt on past performance. He can turn on the schmoozy charm and, as Boris has promised, ok this may be a flaw as we know, lots of money for the NHS, what better way to claim redemption that by taking the credit here. The current Chancellor, currently reasonably popular, has been quietly preparing the UK for the surge in unemployment if you read and listen to the clues in his speeches....once the levels start to rise, so his popularity starts to decline and, the other teensy point. What the Gov't giveth, the Gov't screweth back....called tax rises.

Then there's the issue of who wants to be the scapegoat when they lose the next election plus, who has to ability or desire to return the current mutation of the Tory party back to the real Tory party.

Given the emergence of Starmer, and Angela Rayner as his deputy, plus a distinctly non Corbyn ideology, then with others in the Labour team, all he has to do is use the numerous examples of crass incompetence kindly provided by Boris et al and that 80 + majority dissipates rapidly.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 19:57
  #4542 (permalink)  
 
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And still some people wonder why the independence movement is growing. A union of four equals? Things like this continue to show the lie behind that statement.

Intentionally withholding information on changes to devolved matters from the Devolved administrations. How very Tory,



https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...J0vRlF9zmuVQIA
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 20:10
  #4543 (permalink)  
 
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We all have our strengths and weaknesses (areas for improvement!)

Boris got re-elected (yes, I know,) because he put forward a firm purpose in the direction the public wanted to go. He pushed Brexit forward, had a plan and carried it out. Most of the obstacles, political and actual on the ground had an answer if the direction of travel was known.

With Covid things are a bit different. For many of the decisions, as so often in these circumstances, there was no right answer, especially as there was far too little information to come to any sort of clear conclusion. These days wrong decisions and lack of decision are all over the internet within an hour, essentially before the results of the decision have even been assessed and for sure there is always someone discomforted by every decision.

I think Boris' strength was in carrying out a plan along a set path with a goal in sight and his area for improvement is working on the fly with an unpredictable crisis and lack of definitive information.

We have also seen the degeneration of public intercourse. I am aware that people have been cynical and mean forever. You can read what people said about Lincoln, Churchill and any other leader we think of as great but at least before the worst was edited out before public consumption. Not only is it not edited out today but the wider opportunity to vent in public has exposed the ends of the bell curve even as it exposed also the fact that our reading was limited by the political bias of the journalists and editor. (We always knew it but somehow we wanted to believe them!)

I suspect that change will be permanent and I don't know if we are better or worse off for it.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 20:39
  #4544 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avionker View Post
And still some people wonder why the independence movement is growing. A union of four equals? Things like this continue to show the lie behind that statement.

Intentionally withholding information on changes to devolved matters from the Devolved administrations. How very Tory,



https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...J0vRlF9zmuVQIA
It is rare that I can be shocked by our government's deceit but this is truly outrageous!
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 21:05
  #4545 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
It is rare that I can be shocked by our government's deceit but this is truly outrageous!
No it isn't - no government shares everything when at the planning stage. Westminster isn't the English government, it's the UK's.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 21:29
  #4546 (permalink)  
 
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We will have to agree to differ.

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Old 6th Oct 2020, 22:16
  #4547 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post
We all have our strengths and weaknesses (areas for improvement!)

Boris got re-elected (yes, I know,) because he put forward a firm purpose in the direction the public wanted to go. He pushed Brexit forward, had a plan and carried it out. Most of the obstacles, political and actual on the ground had an answer if the direction of travel was known.
Not really. He got re-elected because he engineered an unnecessary election on the flimsy basis that Parliament was thwarting Brexit, whereas the reality was that it was going ahead anyway even though MPs weren’t as acquiescent to his wishes as Cummings would like. He was thus able to combine ‘get Brexit done’ which was a given anyway, with the unelectability of Corbyn and get a clear majority. It was always likely once Brexit was done that the Emperor’s clothes would fall away. Covid has merely expedited the process, helped by a much more competent Labour leadership.

I think Boris' strength was in carrying out a plan along a set path with a goal in sight and his area for improvement is working on the fly with an unpredictable crisis and lack of definitive information.
Probably the time to introduce MacMillan: When asked what represented the greatest challenge for a statesman, Macmillan replied: “Events, my dear boy, events.” As you have correctly identified Boris can’t really cope with ‘events’, and he’s certainly no statesman!
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 23:01
  #4548 (permalink)  
 
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But Brexit isn't done, not by a very long chalk. Having thrown out the Theresa May deal Pfeffel hasn't replaced it with anything. Rumours are that Macron's personal dislike is causing him to be very difficult over fish, in effect painting the UK into a corner to force a humiliating climb down. Expect Nige to be there at a canter just as soon as the fisherman get sold out to prevent an effective blockade of the UK. Johnson really is between a rock and a hard place. His speech today was pathetic with heavily jingoistic references to Johnny Foreigner and Rule Brittania. Last refuge of a scoundrel?
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 23:30
  #4549 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
No it isn't - no government shares everything when at the planning stage. Westminster isn't the English government, it's the UK's.
With 533 of the 650 seats it is an English parliament in all but name. And I assure you the distribution of seats by party does not reflect the wishes of the people of any country other than England.

Do you honestly believe that it is acceptable for the Devolved administrations to be kept in the dark, and not consulted upon, changes to devolved powers?
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 07:36
  #4550 (permalink)  
 
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Given the emergence of Starmer, and Angela Rayner as his deputy, plus a distinctly non Corbyn ideology, then with others in the Labour team,
I haven't heard either Starmer or Rayner say anything of interest, certainly no idea of their policies, if any, other than 1970s labour doctrines, so I wouldn't hold your breath that either of these two will change very much. The labour team, this includes Dianne Abbot and Dawn Butler presumably, ditto there.
Things are difficult at the moment with Brexit and covid, with much unemployment ahead, the Government are bound to be getting some stick, but I can't believe that Starmer could have done any better, and of course Starmer is a remainer and tried to stop brexit after the referendum, people won't have forgotten that.
The reason that Johnson won such a whopping majority is that people wanted to get brexit completed and there was no way Labour was going to do that, they couldn't even say whether they supported it or not, and nothing seems to have changed. If Starmer is serious he needs to dump the failed 1970s policies and show some flair, but that is not happening.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 08:08
  #4551 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
I haven't heard either Starmer or Rayner say anything of interest, certainly no idea of their policies, if any, other than 1970s labour doctrines, so I wouldn't hold your breath that either of these two will change very much. The labour team, this includes Dianne Abbot and Dawn Butler presumably, ditto there.
Things are difficult at the moment with Brexit and covid, with much unemployment ahead, the Government are bound to be getting some stick, but I can't believe that Starmer could have done any better, and of course Starmer is a remainer and tried to stop brexit after the referendum, people won't have forgotten that.
The reason that Johnson won such a whopping majority is that people wanted to get brexit completed and there was no way Labour was going to do that, they couldn't even say whether they supported it or not, and nothing seems to have changed. If Starmer is serious he needs to dump the failed 1970s policies and show some flair, but that is not happening.
What were the chances of you ever voting for Labour, or supporting any of Labour's policies, whatever they were, and whoever were in charge?

The people haven't got Brexit completed, they have a mess, created by a government that is controlled by the extreme right wingers (both elected and unelected people) who fail to understand the basics; that the UK has left an organisation, and therefore is in no position to lay down red lines and threaten them with no deal. The EU carries on, the UK unless Johnson and his cronies make some kind of hairpin turn, in heading for a very uncertain future, that will put people's jobs and wellbeing in jeopardy. The only people who can be happy with situation are those who stand to profit from it, and those who have money behind them so that whatever happens they are unaffected. The rest, when we see just how much damage has been done (assuming an exit to transition without a trade deal) will pretty quickly turn to a sane (as aopposed to insane, Corbyn lead) Labour party.

On Covid I think we can agree, whether the PM were Starmer or Corbyn the Covid situation would probably have been little different.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 08:20
  #4552 (permalink)  
 
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Starmer is keeping his powder dry, waiting for the post brexit and covid outcomes before he makes his move.
Never interrupt an enemy when they are making mistakes.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 08:47
  #4553 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
Starmer is keeping his powder dry, waiting for the post brexit and covid outcomes before he makes his move.
Never interrupt an enemy when they are making mistakes.
Indeed, he's a lawyer by trade, and from what I understand, a pretty good one. A strategy of keeping quiet and allowing the government to continue digging holes for itself is a sound one.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 09:17
  #4554 (permalink)  
 
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Starmer will be in a very good position when the Brexit solids strike the air conditioning to say " I told you so". And, as he was such a vociferous supporter of a second vote on the outcome of the final deal there will be no opportunity for childish name calling of the Captain Hindsight type. In fact Starmer will be able to claim the moniker of Captain Foresight on Brexit, a policy that Johnson, Gove and all of that third rate cabinet will own.

AB. Point of information Abbott and Butler are not part of the Starmer team. They are back benchers in the same way that fruit loops like Desmond Swayne, him of the multi coloured shirtings is.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 10:26
  #4555 (permalink)  
 
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The reason that Johnson won such a whopping majority ...
One can only wonder if that statement was made with a straight face or the writer really doesn't understand the British election system. Let me try once again ...
The wish of the British electorate, as expressed in their individual votes at the last election, was for a hung Parliament!! The British so-called 'democratic system' then modified those results to produce a false majority for the Tories. There's nothing new about this - the actual intentions of the British electorate are very rarely reflected in the resultant Government. That such a thing occurs, and will continue to do so, is down to the unthinking acceptance of such statements as the above quote. I would hazard a guess that Mr Bellcrank is relatively numerate - why.then, this inability to relate numerical aggregation with results?
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 10:49
  #4556 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
The reason that Johnson won such a whopping majority ...
One can only wonder if that statement was made with a straight face or the writer really doesn't understand the British election system. Let me try once again ...
The wish of the British electorate, as expressed in their individual votes at the last election, was for a hung Parliament!! The British so-called 'democratic system' then modified those results to produce a false majority for the Tories. There's nothing new about this - the actual intentions of the British electorate are very rarely reflected in the resultant Government. That such a thing occurs, and will continue to do so, is down to the unthinking acceptance of such statements as the above quote. I would hazard a guess that Mr Bellcrank is relatively numerate - why.then, this inability to relate numerical aggregation with results?
Though I am totally sympathetic with your view on UK democracy, or lack thereof, I don't think that banging the drum incessantly in this forum will make an iota of difference. Time to find another club to put in the bag!

The "old firm" of Labour and Tory are more than happy with the way the system works as it enables them to play their silly parliamentary games unhindered by coalition partners, happy with a system that ensures one or the other will always be in majority control. No much different to the other "old firm" in Glasgow representing the Catholic and Protestant parties every Saturday.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 11:08
  #4557 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
, I don't think that banging the drum incessantly in this forum will make an iota of difference. T
Much as I enjoy everyone's contribution to this forum and it is about UK Politics, I am curious to discover what we have said in this forum that has already made a difference?

I am resigned to the view that nothing we say here will make any difference. Perhaps I am wrong, often am. I am happy for drums to be beaten regularly.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 11:16
  #4558 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avionker View Post
With 533 of the 650 seats it is an English parliament in all but name. And I assure you the distribution of seats by party does not reflect the wishes of the people of any country other than England.

Do you honestly believe that it is acceptable for the Devolved administrations to be kept in the dark, and not consulted upon, changes to devolved powers?
My point is that some things are dealt with at a UK level, and that others are devolved.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for the UK government to establish what its position is before then engaging with the devolved administrations.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 11:30
  #4559 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
My point is that some things are dealt with at a UK level, and that others are devolved.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for the UK government to establish what its position is before then engaging with the devolved administrations.
The whole UK quasi federal system is a total mess. If the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish have their won elected governments, then it is really strange that the English don't. It would be far better if there was a separate English parliament, elected, as ais the Scottish and Welsh institutions, by PR. This would leave the UK government to deal with matters that are essentially pan-UK related, and the individual states to govern everything at state level.

The problem is we haven't even got to a point where the state parliaments actually have the same responsibilities; with the Scots having much more control over their affairs than do the Welsh; then in Northern Ireland the system is hardly democratic at all, given that the DUP / UUP have a permanent inbuilt majority at Stormont to ensure those pesky nationalists don't win power and try for a referendum on unification, which, if they did would probably rekindle the fire in the bellies of the Unionist (Protestant) terror groups.

The UK really needs a full blown review of it's constitution, and a move to a proper federal system, where regional governments have real budgets, with real power and real influence on the stuff that actually effects people in their daily lives. Only then will your average voter take regional elections seriously, as allowing the very few the opportunity to really influence them could hit them harder than electing a few substandard local windbags to the town hall does. Taking day to day decision making away from Westminster could be a big driver in rebalancing the UK away from London and the Southeast.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 11:42
  #4560 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
The whole UK quasi federal system is a total mess. If the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish have their won elected governments, then it is really strange that the English don't. It would be far better if there was a separate English parliament, elected, as ais the Scottish and Welsh institutions, by PR. This would leave the UK government to deal with matters that are essentially pan-UK related, and the individual states to govern everything at state level.
I completely agree and this is an outcome I would like to see. It just makes sense. How it would come about is the political difficulty as sense doesn't compute well at Westminster.
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