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The Queen and Brexit

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The Queen and Brexit

Old 6th Sep 2019, 12:44
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
It certainly is a cluster (love your pseudonym!), but I wouldn't blame Dave. Yes, he amounted to nothing beyond a glib and lightweight wannabe but he was faced with a problem that had been dogging the Conservative party - and to a less noticeable degree, the country - since 1974 and he felt, properly in my view, that the time had come to lance the boil. Referenda are not a fundamental part of our constitutional way of life, so this undertaking was a big deal and the voting public responded proportionately to the government's promise to abide by the voters' choice.
..ah, yes, the voters' choice..

Let's say the UK ran another referendum on the reintroduction of the death penalty. There's a lot of argument between politicians in the run up as to what the intent of the ballot. Some say they only want it brought back for murder...some want it brought back for GBH as well as murder, some even want it brought back for some of the more serious motoring offences.

On the day the wording of the question on the ballot paper is simply:

"Should capital punishment be reintroduced"?

The are two options, a box for "Yes" and a Box for "No"..

Would you put in an X in either of those Boxes?
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Old 6th Sep 2019, 12:52
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
..ah, yes, the voters' choice..

Let's say the UK ran another referendum on the reintroduction of the death penalty. There's a lot of argument between politicians in the run up as to what the intent of the ballot. Some say they only want it brought back for murder...some want it brought back for GBH as well as murder, some even want it brought back for some of the more serious motoring offences.

On the day the wording of the question on the ballot paper is simply:

"Should capital punishment be reintroduced"?

The are two options, a box for "Yes" and a Box for "No"..

Would you put in an X in either of those Boxes?
Would you be happy if just 328 people just made the death penalty Law, especially if their manifesto clearly stated it wouldn't?
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Old 6th Sep 2019, 13:45
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by simmy View Post
Why did Parliament get involved?
Doing their job?

The job they were elected to do?

In 2017?

A year after the referendum?
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Old 6th Sep 2019, 14:58
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post

Would you be happy if just 328 people just made the death penalty Law, especially if their manifesto clearly stated it wouldn't?





Not sure what that has to do with the question I posed - we are back to "oh look a squirrel".
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Old 6th Sep 2019, 16:10
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


Not sure what that has to do with the question I posed - we are back to "oh look a squirrel".
You mentioned, in your scenario the death penalty. I asked a perfectly polite question.
You stated that you blamed Cameron for giving the electorate the chance to choose the direction of their futures.
Whilst he was the PM, he could not have had a referendum without the approval of Parliament. Just look at the impotence (BJ)of the PM if Parliament don't agree with a policy. He had one vote the same as the other 649.
Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the public to be given a vote. We didn't hear the voices of MPs filling the airwaves stating the public shouldn't be given a vote.

If no referendums ever take place again, all decisions will be taken by the government and voted on by Parliament.
So my question is simple, would you be happy if a majority of MPs just approved the use of the death penalty? Even, if prior to being voted in, they clearly stated they would not pursue this.


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Old 7th Sep 2019, 00:02
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
..ah, yes, the voters' choice..

Let's say the UK ran another referendum on the reintroduction of the death penalty. There's a lot of argument between politicians in the run up as to what the intent of the ballot. Some say they only want it brought back for murder...some want it brought back for GBH as well as murder, some even want it brought back for some of the more serious motoring offences.

On the day the wording of the question on the ballot paper is simply:

"Should capital punishment be reintroduced"?

The are two options, a box for "Yes" and a Box for "No"..

Would you put in an X in either of those Boxes?
This is a thoroughly specious piece of sophistry.

All things being equal, my inclination would be to vote "yes". However, things are far from being equal. The police, the Crown Prosecution Service, other Home Office and governmental responsibilities are so poorly discharged that, as we so often have seen from recent experience, the chances of there being miscarriages of justice would have such a significant level of probability that impositions of a death sentence would be unconscionable. Difficult (and pointless) to mount an appeal when you are dead.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 06:33
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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The Nip

Given as you are continuing to deflect rather than answer the question I posed I guess you understand the dangers of voting "yes".

GQ..sophistry it may be but I refer you to the above comment.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 06:59
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
The Nip

Given as you are continuing to deflect rather than answer the question I posed I guess you understand the dangers of voting "yes".

GQ..sophistry it may be but I refer you to the above comment.
I wouldn't vote for the re introduction of the death penalty.

Your answer please!
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 07:34
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you..

No I wouldn't
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 08:37
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Thank you..

No I wouldn't
Well therein lies the problem. You don't want the death penalty decided by just 328 people, so I assume you would want another way, referendum?

Yet you are more than happy for the EU question to be decided by the same amount of people.

If I have this wrong, apologies.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 09:05
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


Well therein lies the problem. You don't want the death penalty decided by just 328 people, so I assume you would want another way, referendum?

Yet you are more than happy for the EU question to be decided by the same amount of people.

If I have this wrong, apologies.
But the EU question has NOT been decided by 328 people.
In fact it has been un-decided by 328 people (if there is such a word).
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 17:06
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


Well therein lies the problem. You don't want the death penalty decided by just 328 people, so I assume you would want another way, referendum?

Yet you are more than happy for the EU question to be decided by the same amount of people.

If I have this wrong, apologies.
Just to be clear and to tidy this up the point of my question was how politicians can take the result of a referendum where the question is poorly framed question and then use "will of the people" / "voters choice" to justify pretty much all that follows if the vote has gone their way.

A majority voting "yes" to the question "should the death penalty be restored" are opening the door to the possibility of the death penalty being introduced for..well absolutely any offence..









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Old 7th Sep 2019, 17:38
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Just to be clear and to tidy this up the point of my question was how politicians can take the result of a referendum where the question is poorly framed question and then use "will of the people" / "voters choice" to justify pretty much all that follows if the vote has gone their way.

A majority voting "yes" to the question "should the death penalty be restored" are opening the door to the possibility of the death penalty being introduced for..well absolutely any offence..
Surely this is a pointless argument. A referendum on the death penalty would need a Bill to be passed in Parliament.
I hope no government would never be so stupid as to present such a Bill.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 17:48
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I hope no government would never be so stupid as to present such a Bill.
One might have hoped the same about the EU referendum Bill. Just goes to show that such hopes are not always fulfilled.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 17:51
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Do you think we really need yet another Brexit thread?
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 17:55
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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No. One was too many.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 20:27
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Just to be clear and to tidy this up the point of my question was how politicians can take the result of a referendum where the question is poorly framed question and then use "will of the people" / "voters choice" to justify pretty much all that follows if the vote has gone their way.

A majority voting "yes" to the question "should the death penalty be restored" are opening the door to the possibility of the death penalty being introduced for..well absolutely any offence..
Wiggy, old fellow, the question posed in the referendum was in no sense "poorly framed". The question was "Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?" Straightforward and unambiguous. It is anti-democratic elements, mostly within Parliament, which subsequently have muddied the waters and introduced contrived complications to thwart the will of the electorate which was/is in opposition to their own agendas and expectations.

The death penalty subject is not analogous and therefore irrelevant in this context. I was around when the death penalty was still on the statutes but I don't remember it being used for parking offences. Your logic here is seriously adrift.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 21:42
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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The problem is that the British don't do referendums. Other countries hold them regularly and know the form. Spell out the realities for the electorate.
But the Brexit referendum was botched. Leaving the EU was sold as some sort of panacea for Britain's ills. Blaming the EU for everything.

The other fault is the belief that a referendum result is set in stone unlike a general election apparently. They can be held every second year at the whim of the government. Referendums are sacrosanct apparently and cannot be ever considered as a snapshot on a particular day or a protest vote. A shot across the bows from the electorate to the government. A warning indeed.

​​​​​​But leaving aside all that I remain at a loss to understand how the referendum result justifies a no deal with all it's economic consequences most likely to the very people who voted to leave. Punishment for their foolishness perhaps?

Leaving with a deal is such a no brainer to everyone but the extremists.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 22:08
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
thwart the will of the electorate
The "will of the electorate" was to elect the 2017 parliament to represent them. Thus supersedes any earlier vote.
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Old 7th Sep 2019, 22:15
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
The "will of the electorate" was to elect the 2017 parliament to represent them. Thus supersedes any earlier vote.
Unless that results in inconvenient laws 😉
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