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A state sponsored killing question...

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A state sponsored killing question...

Old 11th Jun 2019, 13:03
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A state sponsored killing question...

We know that China, Saudia Arabia, North Korea, the USA, Somalia, Iran, Iraq & Indonesia are amongst others to conduct Capital Punishment... I was curious reading here -

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...bc34061f1a9542

Now I do not know if that link works in whatever Country you may be in...but it mentions of smoke and flames shooting from the heads of a couple of inmates who died in "Old Sparky" in Florida, and it occured to me that that is somewhat barbaric, not unlike Saudis beheading people in the street..

I recently snapped a tendon in my left thumb, requiring surgery.....the last thing I saw was the surgeon prepping my hand.......and then he was talking to me in the recovery ward.....surely when you are so heavily anaesthetised it must be a very simple thing to take a life, quietly humanly and without such violence...so why is it not done like that? (Especially given the above company of fellow proponents of Capital Punishment ?) I know that each state has it's own methodolgy, but thinking of my own recent experience being under a general and not being 'brought back' seems exrtemely simple and humane....you wouldn't even know you died!!

And in the case of the US, it seems so protracted....some inmates there for 20+ years until being finally executed, surely appeals etc can be conducted in a far shorter time!. I am not neccesarily against Evil murderous f#kers being put to death, but cannot it be done quickly quietly hunmanly and in a relatively short period of time?

Having been in and around PPRuNe for the last 15+ years this may have been done before, but I don't specifically recall r know how to research!..

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Old 11th Jun 2019, 15:28
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I often wondered the same thing, having had several animals euthanized over the years, it always seemed to me to be a peaceful way to go. And that may be partly the reason why those states that practice execution use painful lethal injections or old sparky, or the hangman's noose or firing squads or effing big swords. It becomes an important and embedded part of the deterrent effect.
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 15:40
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The hangman's noose is quick and efficient, and makes very little mess. The run-up to it - the long walk to the scaffold, the image of the hanging noose etc. are pretty ghastly, though, and ought to have some deterrent effect.
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 17:45
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It is true the hangman's is quick and efficient. As used by the US though, it was anything but. Very often, those hanged by the US died of strangulation. I don't understand the current method of killing. Why do they need a very specific mix of 3 chemicals? I thought cyanide was very quick and, perhaps, painless. And, talking of long delays between conviction and execution in the US, I remember as a kid, my mother getting all steamed up over the length of time Caryl Chessman had spent on death row (something like 12 years).
Speaking of hanging, what about the condemned man being escorted though a rainy courtyard to the gallows. He complained to the escort that the weather was atrocious. To which the escort replied "It's alright for you. I have to walk back through this"!
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 18:41
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Quite useful posts, really. It makes future references to observations from the above contributors much easier to assess!
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 18:50
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I dont think many US states use the Chair these days or gas chambers. The lethal injection sounds humane but they have had many problems with it especiallyas the prefer drug was made in the Eu who stopped selling it to them.

China with the pistol shot in the back of the head is a bit up close and personal and back in my earlier working days two of my colleagues partially witnessed crucifixions in the Yemen supplanted a few years alter by being death centres being carried out by machine gun, an inevitably dangerous practice when done publicly. NK seem to have some pretty gruesome ideas on the subject too.

Society has an interesting debate coming up when Governments try and force euthanasia on extremely sick or otherwise impaired elderly people while proclaiming the state cannot execute child murderers and serial killers. Mind you the Chinese way of dealing with tax evaders and corrupt businessmen might be just the thing for the UK
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 19:01
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Originally Posted by UniFoxOs View Post
The hangman's noose is quick and efficient, and makes very little mess. The run-up to it - the long walk to the scaffold, the image of the hanging noose etc. are pretty ghastly, though, and ought to have some deterrent effect.
Bit late for deterrence if you're heading for the gallows, I'd have thought!
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 21:48
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A long time ago I was allowed to visit the condemned cell and gallows at Wandsworth Prison. From the table where the condemned man would have been sitting when the executioners walked through the door to the drop was 8 paces for a fit, unafraid man, let him shuffle a bit and you could get it to 15 paces. Albert Pierrepoint's record was 7.5 seconds from entering the condemned cell (at Armley Gaol Leeds) to the trapdoor opening. His average, for a single prisoner over 405 executions was 13 seconds.

In the UK 3 clear Sundays had to happen between sentence and execution, most executions were on Tuesdays or Wednesdays between 8 and 9 am. My visit was conducted by a chaplain who had officiated at executions and a warder who had walked as the prisoner's escort the last walk, and supported him as he stood on the gallows. The condemned always asked questions that neither the chaplain or warder were allowed to answer. The condemned were encouraged to "walk with dignity, courage and the strength of God" that there would be "no pain or suffering and that going quietly, with strength was the best for everyone involved."

Pierrepoint claimed in his evidence to the Royal Commission on capital punishment that he only saw one prisoner really fight, a couple of prisoners faint at the last, but the rest went quietly and with dignity as though they wanted to show their courage at the last, and none braver than the women he hanged.

Pierrepoint stated in later life that he thought capital punishment had little deterrent effect, and that if the public could see the bravery of the condemned at the last, then it would have no deterrent effect at all.

The US system of years on death row, with last minute appeals and stays before being strapped down half an hour before your death, having needles inserted and waiting for the clock to tick down strikes me as a lot worse than the system Britain gave up in 1965.

This tells a lot


And this is rather terrifying


SND
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 01:09
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I'm pretty sure that the practice of keeping prisoners on death row for years on end is a conspiracy on the part of the US legal profession to milk as many fees out of the system as possible.

I was present at the arrest of a soldier who had killed a taxi driver in Aden in 1966. The individual was tried in the civil court in Aden and convicted of murder. Although the UK had abolished the death penalty for murder the year before, it was still theoretically in use in Aden, which was a crown colony at the time, and the soldier was duly condemned to death by hanging. Fortunately for him the British Home Secretary still had the final say and his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. I have to confess being very relieved. Having met the man within an hour of the killing, I was able to see that the whole thing was the result of a sordid quarrel over a taxi fare, made worse by the soldier being drunk. The thought of bringing another life to an end because of a moment of madness just seemed so wrong, it would have had no deterrent effect and would certainly not have brought back the dead man.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 02:14
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In theory, the US method of lethal injection is supposed to work about like fliegenmong suggests. The first chemical administered is a rapid-acting barbiturate that induces unconsciousness. Given enough time, it would also result in death (it is the same chemical often used to "put down" beloved pets) by suppressing respiration, as do opioid overdoses.

It is followed in short order by a paralytic, which also, alone, would eventually paralyze the diaphragm and cause asphyxiation. And finally by a heavy dose of potassium chloride, which shuts down the heart by fouling up its pace-maker-type nerve impulses. That final step would cause serious pain as the potassium "salt" burns the blood vessels on the way to the heart (ever gotten salt in a wound?), thus the barbiturate is given first.

The executee may also be given a tranquilizer before the final execution injection sequence.

I suspect the problems we've had with the method is it fails to fully account for anxiety and stress - unlike a pet, a human knows they are about to be killed, and that will make adrenalin spike. And I suspect that degrades the ability of the various chemicals to do their intended jobs. After all, epinephrine/adrenaline is the exact drug administered to counteract cardiac arrest and restore consciousness. They may never fall as deeply asleep as thought, and the pain of the KCl injection can bring them around in agony. A mess, regardless of one's opinions on capital punishment overall.

The prospect of death will always induce terror. One wonders if the (possibly apocryphal) Soviet variation on the Chinese method is perhaps the most humane. The prisoner is brought to an office and told his death-sentence has been commuted. As he is walked back down the corridor to his cell, an executioner steps out of a side door, places a Makarov behind his ear, and switches him off.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 02:15
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
I often wondered the same thing, having had several animals euthanized over the years, it always seemed to me to be a peaceful way to go. And that may be partly the reason why those states that practice execution use painful lethal injections or old sparky, or the hangman's noose or firing squads or effing big swords. It becomes an important and embedded part of the deterrent effect.
The "deterrent effect" isn't doing much deterring. US states without capital punishment have had consistently lower murder rates than the ones that use it:

Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates

There’s still no evidence that executions deter criminals

And nations that abolish capital punishment tend to see a decline in murder rates:

Study: International Data Shows Declining Murder Rates After Abolition of Death Penalty

Of course there's other factors in crime rates, but having the death penalty on the books at best doesn't decrease murder rates, at worst (most likely scenario) increases them.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 02:41
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
Bit late for deterrence if you're heading for the gallows, I'd have thought!

I'm sure they claim they get no repeat offenders.....................
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 02:43
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"The prisoner is brought to an office and told his death-sentence has been commuted. As he is walked back down the corridor to his cell, an executioner steps out of a side door, places a Makarov behind his ear, and switches him off."

Costs a fortune in re-decorating costs tho'...............

But seriously , killing people is wrong and all to often they kill the wrong people
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 04:34
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Lethal injection

I would say I am in favour of execution when it is for properly evil people and only when it is done quickly and humanely. If it were to be stopped though I would not protest.

The example below fills me with horror and is probably the best evidence for immediate cessation of lethal injection as an option.


BV
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 06:40
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[QUOTEThe CDC estimates that 72,287 people died (in the USA) from overdoses in 2017, an increase of about 10% from the year before.

A majority of the deaths – nearly 49,000 – was caused by opioids, according to the new data. And the biggest driver was the dangerous synthetic opioid fentanyl, which killed more than 29,000 people, followed by heroin and other drugs][/QUOTE]

Use confiscated heroin and fentanyl. No brand name quandaries and most of the fentanyl comes from China.
Cuts expenses. Quick and painless, so humane as well, if you've got to kill someone.
Good enough for addicts - good enough for murderers.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 07:50
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"The prisoner is brought to an office and told his death-sentence has been commuted. As he is walked back down the corridor to his cell, an executioner steps out of a side door, places a Makarov behind his ear, and switches him off."
Ah, the leadthal injection method.

CG
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 08:14
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Bob: You are right; that video was horrible.The whole charade looks very much like a pantomime staged for sadists. And the licensed medic needs to have his license looked at. It was obvious that the condemned man was not fully unconscious when he was fluttering his eyelids and rolling his eyes. And the business of raising the gurney in order for the family to get a good eyeful, along with the theatrical raising and lowering (or failing to lower) the curtain over the viewing screen reinforced the impression of a sadistic process.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 09:17
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
I dont think many US states use the Chair these days or gas chambers. The lethal injection sounds humane but they have had many problems with it especiallyas the prefer drug was made in the Eu who stopped selling it to them.

China with the pistol shot in the back of the head is a bit up close and personal and back in my earlier working days two of my colleagues partially witnessed crucifixions in the Yemen supplanted a few years alter by being death centres being carried out by machine gun, an inevitably dangerous practice when done publicly. NK seem to have some pretty gruesome ideas on the subject too.

Society has an interesting debate coming up when Governments try and force euthanasia on extremely sick or otherwise impaired elderly people while proclaiming the state cannot execute child murderers and serial killers. Mind you the Chinese way of dealing with tax evaders and corrupt businessmen might be just the thing for the UK

How do you "partially witness" a crucifixion?
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 09:27
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Only see 2 nails?
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 09:40
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
How do you "partially witness" a crucifixion?
Perhaps the same way myself and my (now ex) wife accidentally witnessed three executions by firing squad. We were driving out to see some friends for lunch one Friday, when we saw lines of children being led to the bit of flat ground that was used as a driving school. We stopped out of curiosity and were ushered towards the back of the crowd by the police (the children were all at the front). We only realised what was going on when we saw the three stakes in the ground at the front, and by that time the police were not allowing anyone out.

Not something I've ever been able to forget, I was only thankful that we were near the back of the crowd. I can't imagine what effect it must have had on the children.
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