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South Africa

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South Africa

Old 27th May 2019, 00:06
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately I hold very little hope of Cyril Ramaphosa being able to sort out the mess, there are remaining hangover problems from the apartheid days, Jacob Zuma's looting of the coffers and the fact that the ANC and state institutions are largely run by incompetent people rotten to the core with corruption. Remarkably, even in its present state SA is still subject to illegal immigration from the rest of the continent which shows how bad things likely to get later on as these countries have enjoyed independence from "winds of change" days of the 1960s.

Even the black middle class is trying to get out, their emigration rate is higher than that of whites. The backbone of the country is disappearing, all that will be left will be:
1. Rich whites who have already made their fortunes and live in mansions in gated communities with 24 hour armed patrols. They are too comfortable to leave unless the situation becomes totally dire.
2. Poor whites in squatter camps without the skills or resources necessary to move on.
3. Rich blacks who made their money after 1994 through government patronage or business and now enjoy comfortable lives in mansions in former whites only suburbs.
4. Poor blacks in the townships, either unemployed or having low skilled jobs, unable to move on.

The skilled professionals with other options are bailing out as fast as they can.

China will end up recolonising Africa as part of its "Belt and Road" initiative. China has few natural resources whereas Africa has abundant. China is running out of low wage workers as living standards rise towards developed country level whereas Africa has no shortage of people who will work for $5 a day. Chinese companies involved in lower end manufacturing are starting to relocate, setting up factories at the source of their raw materials and new workforce. The iPhones will still be made in Shenzhen, the plastic toys and textiles will be made in Africa. They will make sure the lights and water stay on and the trains run in order to make their money. African politicians will simply be paid off puppets with the strings being pulled from Beijing.

Seeing what the Chinese have done in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore with virtually nothing to start with, this could be the best option for the continent.
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Old 27th May 2019, 06:28
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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There is no doubt that anyone in SA who is slightly wealthy will have arranged to hold assets offshore through some of the many channels that have developed to counter the decay and devaluation. Yes, they may have the mansions in Sandton and Constantia, but if they have those, then they will have their apartments in Florida and their houses in Bondi. As we know, borders and boundaries are porous when you have enough funds.

Some of course, may be wealthy up and coming "Saffers" but would not feel free enough to "operate" in a first world economy.

As for the capabilities of the Chinese, of one thing can you be sure, they are willing to work and are not governed by corrupt leaders

IG

Last edited by Imagegear; 28th May 2019 at 03:00.
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Old 27th May 2019, 22:27
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jurassicpark View Post
My late father met both Bob Mugabe and Cyril Ramaphosa. He had a fear of one and a healthy respect for another.

I believe Me Ramaphosa is the best chance SA has. However he will be like King Canute trying to defy the tide. He will just delay the inevitable decay.
My late father met Mahatma Ghandi on a voyage out of Cape Town but I'm not sure what relevance that has to the current thread.

Last edited by WingNut60; 28th May 2019 at 00:13.
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Old 27th May 2019, 23:04
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Given the fact that Cyril has a net worth of over $500 million which he acquired in a relatively short time, I would think that his appeals for honesty and integrity in the public and private sectors would be laughed at, unless he is able to demonstrate that all his financial dealings were above board.

Family fortunes of this caliber take several generations to build up, especially when started from a low base. Once the first few millions are gained, the old adage of “money makes money” comes into play.
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Old 28th May 2019, 00:17
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
.......
Family fortunes of this caliber take several generations to build up, especially when started from a low base. Once the first few millions are gained, the old adage of “money makes money” comes into play.
Or the "three generation rule" (not the North Korean one).

One generation to make it, one generation to consolidate it and one generation to lose the lot.

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Old 28th May 2019, 00:59
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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]My late father met Mahatma Ghandi on a voyage out of Cape Town but I'm not sure what relevance that has to the current thread.

​​​​​​Ok. I'll bite. The issue is that South Africa is a gnats whisker away from being an other Zimbabwe. The present PM of South Africa is its last chance to avert a complete meltdown. If a meltdown happens the whole region is in for testing times. Bob not good. Cyril good. Mahatma irrelevant.
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Old 28th May 2019, 01:33
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That'll do.
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Old 28th May 2019, 03:02
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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How about Mahatma threw the bones and subsequently left for better opportunities?

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Old 28th May 2019, 05:56
  #29 (permalink)  
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Two more youngsters murdered yesterday, ran out of gas and got shot on the highway.They happened to be white, which apparently caused some offence to the murderers. She was very lucky, I suppose, that they took her out with one to the head,
I am told that the final exodus of young white Jews has begun. The parents and grand parents, who would always have stayed in the past, are making plans to leave too. Property prices in Glenhazel, an old Jewish area, are down by 20% this year.
There is a ray of hope which is that the slack in the property market is being taken up by young black middle class arrivals. Let's hope that continues.
But you see, the old prejudices continue even in the most benign fashion. White people I know here cannot understand that there is a certain indication in saying 'there's a black man at the door'. instead of 'there's a man at the door'. Whites here just don't comprehend that the black bit of the passage should be a descriptive addendum, if anything at all, and not an initial qualifier.
Never mind, Cape Town, with its self inflated ego of white wonderfulment will continue for a while, buoyed by the colossal amount of money its tourist industry brings into the country. Nonetheless, South Africa now should go down on the list of countries where, should you choose to invest directly, be prepared to loose your investment completely.
If Ramaphosa fail and it's very difficult to see how he can succeed, Malema and his like will be in the ascendancy and then, bye bye the Southern Star.
I do believe that the Guptas still own Jet Airways. I wonder whether Zuma is at home in Mahe and I am certain that Cyril has a pile in Geneva. But of course I could be wrong.
Where is Prester John when you need him?
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Old 28th May 2019, 07:33
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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The issue is that South Africa is a gnats whisker away from being an other Zimbabwe.
Zimbabwe suffered from electricity shortages. - Check
Zimbabwe tap water became undrinkable. - Check
Zimbabwe lost its technical and professional middle class. - Check

So by projection, SA is looking at a currency collapse and hyper inflation.

One difference seems to be that the military in Zimbabwe was much more involved in the government than in SA, possibility due to Zimbabwe getting black rule as the result of a long bush war forcing Ian Smith to hand over power, whereas the ANC military wing was unable to do much more than plant bombs. Whites in South Africa could have hung on power for many more years but the writing was on the wall and black rule would have eventually come about. The collapse of communism, and having Nelson Mandela to hand over to, persuaded the electorate that this was the best option versus clinging on until full scale civil war and anarchy resulted. The new leader emerging from this would have made Julius Malema look like Gandhi in comparison.
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Old 28th May 2019, 14:37
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
...White people I know here cannot understand that there is a certain indication in saying 'there's a black man at the door'. instead of 'there's a man at the door'. Whites here just don't comprehend that the black bit of the passage should be a descriptive addendum, if anything at all, and not an initial qualifier...
It's a heads up. Man at the door is a relatively benign event not requiring you to be alert to the possibility of his mates going in the back while he distracts you, or perhaps be on your toes in case a pistol is thrust in your face and entrance demanded through the security gate.

The numbers speak for themselves.

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Old 28th May 2019, 19:24
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife View Post
Anywhere you are likely to be will find the tap water is perfectly drinkable. The electricity grid is inadequate - our recent problems were caused by Zuma's pal, the Guptas, who got contracts to supply coal - what they delivered was of such poor quality that the power stations struggled. Nearly every state enterprise has been looted of funds by Zuma and his pals - corruption is widespread but not nearly of Nigerian proportions - yes, and Ramaphosa is working on it. There is a lot of violent crime, but to say that it is totally out of control is a considerable exaggeration - SA being the rape and murder capital of the world (trying to catch up with the USA!).

Everything is far from rosy (apart from the food and the incredible beauty all around).

Give Ramaphosa a year and we'll see how it goes.

Mac
Odd statement given your adopted nation far exceeds the US in those negatives.
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Old 29th May 2019, 03:37
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Well, at least,I hope all the anti-apartheid activists are happy with the outcome.
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Old 29th May 2019, 05:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sure Lord (Baron) Peter Hain is very happy. Shunted into the Marxist's "equal opportunity" retirement club, and poncing around in his red and white teddy bear outfit, he has been well rewarded for his revolutionary activities. I wonder how much of his guerrilla war was fought in the basement of the "Compleat Angler" in Marlow along with the other plotters. A pox on his house does not even skim the surface of how I despise him and no I'm not saying what I really feel.

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Old 29th May 2019, 14:58
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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We left SA about a third of a century ago. Despite a quarter of a century of being the 'rainbow nation' it is by far the most racist country (from ALL sides) that I have visited over the past two decades. I am not interested in any finger pointing on the topic of race, both sides are at fault (and I do feel sorry for the tiny minority there who may be genuinely non-racist).

We haven't visited for quite a long time now and won't do so any more. Crime makes it unpleasant to visit, A quote from a family member some time back (referring to all the gated communities and walled, fenced and barred properties) was that South Africa was one of the only countries where the good people live behind bars and the criminal roam free. The roads are terrible (I am referring to the driving standards more than the actual road conditions) and having formal road signs warning of 'hijack blackspots' makes being on the roads even more unpleasant. Every time that we have returned to visit South Africa (even for only a week or two) we have watched a road accident happen; I can't remember when I last saw signs of a road accident in Britain and we have just returned from driving over 3,000 miles around central Europe without seeing any road accidents. Some time back on BBC TV's Crimewatch, there was a comment to sooth people's minds watching 'all' that crime being reported on, that in Britain most people don't know someone who knows someone who knows someone who has been involved in a violent crime. I know several people who have known someone who has been murdered in South Africa. We do not have to watch our backs all the time at home and we do not expect to have to do so when we spend time and money to go on holiday somewhere, so South Africa is firmly off the list. We just cannot do things that we used to be able to do (or can do at home now) so we prefer to remember our good days and not contaminate those memories with the modern 'way of things' there.

Yes, there are beautiful places in South Africa. There are also many, many, many, many, many beautiful places elsewhere in the world. I have seen more of South Africa than most South Africans (every mile of the coastline, for a start), so 'been there, done that' and there is a lot of the rest of the beautiful world to see without having to watch my back all the time.

People there are really blinkered having the strange belief that "it is like that everywhere in the world", or "it's not that bad" as people like Mac the Knife like to make out.
It IS bad (all figures per 100,000 of population per year):
Death toll on SA roads 43.
Death toll on UK roads 2.8.
Death toll on US roads 12.1.
Death toll on NZ roads 7.1
Murder rate in SA 33.97.
Murder rate in UK 1.20.
Murder rate in US 5.35.
Murder rate in NZ 0.99.
Rapes in SA 95.9.
Rapes in UK 17.0.
Rapes in US 27.3
Rapes in NZ 25.8.

Then there's corruption (with this index 100 is good, i.e. least corruption):
SA 43.
UK 80.
US 71.
NZ 87.

And on that last one you cannot point fingers either. South Africa's past and present governments have been bad. Next month it will be 'commemorating' 71 years of continuous bad government.

We enjoy living in Britain. All of the family have achieved much more than if we had stayed. We also feel that we have been able to 'put more back' into the society around us. We enjoy visiting beautiful places in the world.

Much of South Africa is beautiful. Just a pity about the people.
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Old 30th May 2019, 06:35
  #36 (permalink)  
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Speechless with admiration at that most excellent post, I contemplate another day dodging the affluent whites in their overpowered country tractors in the northern suburbs of the City of Gold. I often reflect that the whites just don't care any more and this time down, there seem fewer than ever before. Property approaches bargain basement levels and real, absolute poverty is visible.
Black white collar workers, people such as Johannesburg council workers, the police and so on, try hard and make a difference but the foundation upon which everyone works, the government itself, is rotten to the core. The ANC will never be defeated because it will always have the mob vote but it's a shame to hear that everyone's aspirations to a decent life fly out the window because of one political party.
Peter Hain should get on his high horse again and do something to recreate what he destroyed instead of standing up in the House of Lords and telling everyone how wonderful, honourable and noble of purpose he is.

Sarcastic comments about Peter Hain added in a moment of sniper rifle fury.

Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 30th May 2019 at 07:30.
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Old 30th May 2019, 07:21
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Well said Noel, Cheetah. Not much else I can add.

All our kids left; first one and his family to Australia and the last one left earlier this year for Holland and so did we. You have to experience the trust that the people in Holland seems to have for one another. You just don't steal.
Okay, I know its not quite true but coming from South Africa its a wonderful experience.

My heart bleeds for our friends we left behind.
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Old 30th May 2019, 09:02
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Seriously, WTAF did those who wished this on SA think would happen, handing over a working economy to a collection of thieves and thugs?
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Old 30th May 2019, 13:24
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Puff View Post
Seriously, WTAF did those who wished this on SA think would happen, handing over a working economy to a collection of thieves and thugs?
Let's face it, Zimbabwe turned into a rip-roaring success - aided to a significant degree by one Pres Jimmy Carter no less! Now, there's a prize clown if ever there were! Some years ago I did write to the Carter Foundation citing the irony of the role of that organisation given the role Pres Carter had played in setting Mugabe up in power. V odd, but I never did get a reply! Really can’t figure that one out! Carter’s total misreading of Mugabe is quite breathtaking really and I hope he wakes up each day and sees the blood that is on his hands as a direct result of the fiasco he orchestrated. The blood of tens of thousands of Zimbabweans – black, indigenous, Zimbabweans – is on him, Jimmy Carter!

There was a website years back now where there was a heated discussion as to how "well" Zim was doing. I felt really so very sorry when one very outspoken black Zim lass finally turned round, having tried desperately to paint the country/economy/politics as shining examples of success, and finally admitted defeat but closed with a most poignant statement “...we might be in the [email protected], but at least it was us who put ourselves here!”. All she got from then on was an outpouring of genuine sympathy from all on the Forum – no-one was ever gloating. Those of us who have been there know exactly what the locals lost. And, ironically, most of us knew that they had not “put themselves there” and that she was, ultimately, just another sad victim of people like Carter!

Could it have been different? Would Bishop Abel Muzorewa have managed to steer a more civilised course? Of course we will never know; Carter saw to that placing a man his own UN Ambassador, Andrew Young, once described as being a "very gentle man" whom he [Young and hence Carter] "can't imagine … ever pulling the trigger on a gun to kill anyone." into power. Carter, the clown, shunned Muzorewa as he so wanted to see “his” Mugabe in power – a wish he [Carter], to a great degree, orchestrated into reality. Since then – well, we all know what happened – especially to the indigenous Zimbabweans.

Parallels to SA? There will be many but, to be honest, having seen just how the West misunderstood what they were dealing with in Zimbabwe and subsequently mishandled that, no wonder no-one has been keen to get involved in SA. Will those i/c of SA learn? Well, clearly not – apart from how to line their pockets even more effectively than Mugabe! But, sadly, those haunting words from a brave Zimbabwean lass all those years ago will ring out again, but this time in SA …. “...we might be in the [email protected], but at least it was us who put ourselves here!”. I think it’s called “putting on a brave face” as this time there is less external blame – this is much more of a self-induced situation!

You know, there are times I really do think God should just pull the plug on the “world thing” He created! The Angelic Host must have their heads in their wings and must be just saying “Come on, Lord, just admit you’d had a few too many sherbets in the “Angels’ Tavern” the day before you created that screw-up you called “man” and shut it all down! If, after 13.7 Billion Years, this is the best You can do……..?”.
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Old 30th May 2019, 14:25
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“...we might be in the [email protected], but at least it was us who put ourselves here!”.
And at the end of the day, who pays the bill ? Rhodesia kept going in the face of sanctions, war and droughts for 14 years without any international aid money except for some military cooperation from South Africa who wanted a buffer state on their northern border.

Zimbabwe has had untold billions of dollars in aid money, soft loans and favourable trading status. It's now in ruins with a sizeable percentage of the population forced to flee abroad. China recolonising Africa may not be a bad thing, at least the continent wouldn't be a burden on donor countries anymore.
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