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Borris next PM?

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Borris next PM?

Old 5th Jul 2019, 23:34
  #901 (permalink)  
 
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Look debate as much as you like but Bo Jo will be PM soon.
If you assume he wants the best for England, not Britain not the UK. Perhaps it might be positive.

I just wonder when he wakes up in the cold light of dawn and whether he thinks of the country or his part in it's history. His ego.

My cynical view is that it's about him. With a Napoleonic view that he and Britain are the same and that destiny awaits. That gives him licence to expound his ideas which he literally made up on the fly.
He just wants to be PM. But he really has no idea what happens next. To him it's winning the lottery.

He has no idea of spending the money.
M

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Old 6th Jul 2019, 02:48
  #902 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Why do people keep spouting this rubbish about the country "committing suicide" and "the future of our children... put at risk"?

Look around you the country is booming, population growth out of control, 300k extra houses per annum, major roads and motorways gridlocked, rail travel unaffordable for most people (and that's before HS2), warehouses and logistics sites decimating the landscape. What more do you want?

Think about what has got us to this place, the gross inequality in society, our national wealth and heritage being carved up and sold off to the highest bidder. Dont you think it might just be time for a change??
Oh dear Andrewn,

Yes, the economy is booming, we have as good as full employment, things are indeed rosey, but that's because we have BEEN IN THE EU for 45 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!! We are the 5th largest economy on the planet, the 8th or 9th largest manufacturing economy and number two or three in soft power globally, but that is in a globalised integrated economy with frictionless trade and borders.
The minute we leave the EU without a deal that all ends, instantly! WTO tariffs will kick in for our businesses, so those Lamb farmers who have been exporting their meat to Europe Tariff free will face instant tariffs of 40 to 63%, guess what will happen to their orders? And then their businesses and their jobs?We have already seen this with British Steel, a profitable company until the prospect of tariffs loomed its ugly head and all British Steel's EU customers stopped ordering from them because they couldn't guarantee that an order with a 12 month lead time would not attract heavy tariffs. And British Steel's fate will be the fate of businesses up and down the land, with them closing as a result and foreign owned companies relocating inside the tariff barrier of their major customers, you know, those major customers who just happen to reside inside the world's largest trading block that we sit next to and are about to leave.
THAT is what people are worried about, and these worries are not remoaner propaganda, they are hard facts of economic life in 2019.

Oh, and as for your emotive rant about the UK, you are aware that less then 3% of land in this country is developed and built on? And that those warehouses and logistics sites that you think are 'decimating' (thus leaving 9 out of 10?) the landscape are largely replacing demolished factories and other brownfield sites? And that gridlocked motorways are a global phenomenon?

Last edited by pr00ne; 6th Jul 2019 at 03:00.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 04:23
  #903 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
TM didn't flag the issue of Bojo's mouth and escaping secrets as she would not have known. This would have been by the security services.
Seems like a suitable quote for an appropriate link.......

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...efings-cartoon

But, credit where it's due. Seems Treeza was right when she said the age of austerity was over !.......coming soon, to an honours list, for "services to themselves ".......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 6th Jul 2019 at 04:50.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 07:24
  #904 (permalink)  
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Pr00ne, largely agree with your previous but will pick on two points.

Lamb tariffs, your 40-63% is a wide margin although that 3 is very precise. Is that a fact of a what if? What if EU consumers protest at a huge price hike?

The other is land use. I can't comment on national land use but only say the distribution hubs I see are definitely green field. These huge hubs need large spaces and good roads. We have a large brown field waste recycle facility by Barkston Heath on a WW2 brown site. Space limited and poor roads. We have a huge new retail park being built on green land. I don't know if it will have high street names or if B&Q, M&S, Dunelm, Carpet Right, etc will leave their town sites for brown field housing in addition to the new WW2 airfield housing development.

That retail park will have good connections to its logistics hubs.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 08:13
  #905 (permalink)  
 
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And that gridlocked motorways are a global phenomenon?
True, but our trunk road system (A17 between Newark and East coast and A52 between Nottingham and east coast to highlight but two) is woefully inadequate, as is the UK motorway network, which for a country of the UK's size and population is woefully inadequate when compared with other developed European nations, where if one motorway type road is shut, there is another alternative motorway standard route available. Certainly not the case between Liverpool and Hull, or between Birmingham and Nottingham, or Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The UK has a long history, probably stretching back to the end of WW2, of not investing properly in transport infrastructure, looking at what's needed and always building for today, and never for tomorrow, which is why we're still arguing over high speed rail, and LHR is the UK biggest building site, and has been for decades.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 08:23
  #906 (permalink)  
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Lamb tariffs, your 40-63% is a wide margin although that 3 is very precise. Is that a fact of a what if?
12.8%

A close look at no-deal lamb tariffs - AHDB Beef & Lamb
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 08:29
  #907 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Lamb tariffs, your 40-63% is a wide margin although that 3 is very precise. Is that a fact of a what if? What if EU consumers protest at a huge price hike?
The EU consumers can't do anything about it since AIUI the WTO tariffs will be mandatory. They will either pay up or find a cheaper source.

*Crossed with ORAC*
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 08:39
  #908 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
12.8%
Surely the remoaniacs wouldn't exaggerate by a factor of 5??? Have they learned nothing from their lies?
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 08:49
  #909 (permalink)  
 
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things are indeed rosey, but that's because we have BEEN IN THE EU for 45 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nonsense. And if we hadn't, it might be even rosier.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 09:07
  #910 (permalink)  
 
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[color=left=#000000]things are indeed rosey[/color]
That cannot be true, the remain side have been telling us for the last 3 years that the UK economy is a complete disaster and heading for worse to come if we actually leave the EU.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 09:15
  #911 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Oh dear Andrewn,

Yes, the economy is booming, we have as good as full employment, things are indeed rosey, but that's because we have BEEN IN THE EU for 45 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!
When we joined the Common Market the 28 represented about 40% of global GDP. Now they represent less than 20%.
The single market, customs union, rampant corruption, cronyism and excessive regulation have destroyed economic growth.
France, Germany, Italy and Spain have still not recovered from the 2008 banking crisis, their economies teeter on the edge of recession.
Anyone who thinks that the UK has benefited from EU membership is severely deluded because the facts tell us that the opposite is true.
Truth the the EUphile BBC will never tell you. But there other sources, Economists For Free Trade, for instance, a group of some of the top economists in the country.
https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/publications/

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Old 6th Jul 2019, 09:30
  #912 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC and others: the link you quote to get the 12.8% tariff on Lamb ( A close look at no-deal lamb tariffs - AHDB Beef & Lamb ) makes it quite clear that the tariff is 12.8% + £x per 100 kilos. the value of x varies but is well over £150 in most cases. So the total payable is (in the case of chilled lamb full or half carcases) is £2.41 based on 2016 to 2018 average prices. This is a much larger sum than 12.8%.

So rustle, when you say
Surely the remoaniacs wouldn't exaggerate by a factor of 5??? Have they learned nothing from their lies?
I think you should withdraw your accusations of people being economical with the truth

I could make some remarks about Brexiteers being too thick to read a tariff schedule properly, but I would never dream of being so rude!
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 09:36
  #913 (permalink)  
 
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@Exrigger Well, may be someone on the Forum can give an answer to my question! Why are we, my wife and I, in a quite tight spot financialy today compared to three years ago when absolutely nothing has negatively changed in our professional lifes? On the contrary, my wife has had a substantial wages rise, we have gone almost vegetarians, we have downgraded car-house insurances and are very careful with electricity/gas/water consumption. Being retired, my french pension is inflation indexed so no change there. I commute from home to our farm in France about half the number of times I used to (GB400 / trip) and I have now to think about not overspending... Why such a dramatic change???
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 11:29
  #914 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alicopter View Post
@Exrigger Well, may be someone on the Forum can give an answer to my question! Why are we, my wife and I, in a quite tight spot financialy today compared to three years ago when absolutely nothing has negatively changed in our professional lifes? On the contrary, my wife has had a substantial wages rise, we have gone almost vegetarians, we have downgraded car-house insurances and are very careful with electricity/gas/water consumption. Being retired, my french pension is inflation indexed so no change there. I commute from home to our farm in France about half the number of times I used to (GB400 / trip) and I have now to think about not overspending... Why such a dramatic change???
There is a simple explanation to that. In 2015 for £1 you could get Ä1.40 - 1.50. As of today, for £1 you will only get Ä1.12 - 1.13. While the FTSE has risen, and it's cheaper for the Japanese and other tourists to visit the UK, the impact on the rest of the UK populations is quite the opposite.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 12:05
  #915 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Oh dear Andrewn,

Yes, the economy is booming, we have as good as full employment, things are indeed rosey, but that's because we have BEEN IN THE EU for 45 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!! We are the 5th largest economy on the planet, the 8th or 9th largest manufacturing economy and number two or three in soft power globally, but that is in a globalised integrated economy with frictionless trade and borders.
The minute we leave the EU without a deal that all ends, instantly! WTO tariffs will kick in for our businesses, so those Lamb farmers who have been exporting their meat to Europe Tariff free will face instant tariffs of 40 to 63%, guess what will happen to their orders? And then their businesses and their jobs?We have already seen this with British Steel, a profitable company until the prospect of tariffs loomed its ugly head and all British Steel's EU customers stopped ordering from them because they couldn't guarantee that an order with a 12 month lead time would not attract heavy tariffs. And British Steel's fate will be the fate of businesses up and down the land, with them closing as a result and foreign owned companies relocating inside the tariff barrier of their major customers, you know, those major customers who just happen to reside inside the world's largest trading block that we sit next to and are about to leave.
THAT is what people are worried about, and these worries are not remoaner propaganda, they are hard facts of economic life in 2019.

Oh, and as for your emotive rant about the UK, you are aware that less then 3% of land in this country is developed and built on? And that those warehouses and logistics sites that you think are 'decimating' (thus leaving 9 out of 10?) the landscape are largely replacing demolished factories and other brownfield sites? And that gridlocked motorways are a global phenomenon?
You carry on living the globalist, capitalist dream Pr00ne. Just because GDP grows every year it doesnt mean everybody benefits equally (or even at all in some cases), and neither does it necessarily improve quality of life in an already over-developed island such as our own.

You clearly live in a part of the country with a surfeit of brownfield sites for all these monstrous logistics parks that keep popping up, but it aint the same where I am from, nor do I consider the fields on the edge of our motorways "brownfield" sites. Not sure if these MK residents would agree with your definition of brownfield either...

MK Warehouses

As for your point about "only 3% of the land being developed" that really is straight out of the CBI/BBC/Guardian "playbook". Look beyond the statistics my friend, consider that you may not be able to "develop" Mt Snowdon, or the Peak District, or Loch Ness. Have you ever travelled abroad? If you have you'll understand the UK is vastly overcrowded, with very little (useable) physical capacity left to be building all these expressways or HS2 or anything else that our mind-numbing pursuit of economic growth demands.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 13:18
  #916 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Yes, the economy is booming, we have as good as full employment, things are indeed rosey, but that's because we have BEEN IN THE EU for 45 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!
And yet other long term EU member states are not performing nearly as well economically. Maybe we're doing OK despite rather than because of our EU membership.

Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
We are the 5th largest economy on the planet, the 8th or 9th largest manufacturing economy and number two or three in soft power globally....
And that's why we will survive Brexit, deal or no-deal.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 13:32
  #917 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
And yet other long term EU member states are not performing nearly as well economically. Maybe we're doing OK despite rather than because of our EU membership.



And that's why we will survive Brexit, deal or no-deal.
I totally understand your position; you are a died in the wood Leaver and cannot possibly see any downsides to our leaving the EU. Sure the UK will "survive" a no deal Brexit; these islands aren't going to be annihilated because we've jumped off an economic and political cliff edge, but do we, as a nation want to merely "survive"? Both candidates for PM have accepted that the UK will take a big hit were we to leave with no deal, which given the fact that when it comes down to it in general elections it's usually two things that sway voters - the economy and their job security; and inevitably "our NHS". If the economy is in a poor state come the election, in 2022, then the new PM's government is toast, if the NHS is continuing to fail people, as it is to some extent now, then their government is in peril; if there's a double whammy the Tory party will probably lose out on power for a generation.

All that assumes that the new PM get's beyond the end of this year without an election. Phil Hammond has already committed to stop a no deal Brexit, as have tens of other Tories. Unless the new PM takes all shades of Brexit opinion into consideration, as incidentally May tried valiantly to do, their reign could be exceedingly short.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 14:26
  #918 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I totally understand your position; you are a died in the wood Leaver and cannot possibly see any downsides to our leaving the EU.
My Brexit position is a little bit more complex than that.

I'm actually a reluctant leaver. I'm certainly not an ideological Brexiteer. I agonised over my choice till the day of the referendum not least because I am aware of the economic benefits of EU membership - so yes, I do see the downsides. But this is about more than economics. This is also about the direction of travel of the EU and the rather duplicitous and underhand way we have been set on this course without any kind of democratic mandate. I swear to you that if the EU abandoned it's march towards federalism and concentrated on being a very effective trade zone then I would want back in tomorrow. But I've lost any confidence that this is possible.

It wouldn't surprise me if we take an economic hit. But what really bugs me is the attitude amongst many hardcore remainers that we will suffer a complete economic collapse as a result of Brexit and end up in some sort of Mad Max style dystopia. We will survive Brexit for the very reasons you suggested. And if we can offer a business friendly economic environment post-Brexit then we could even thrive.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 14:35
  #919 (permalink)  
 
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Andy_S

It would appear we share many of the same thoughts.

So that makes at least two Brexiteers that arenít rabid, venom spitting xenophobes.

BV
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 14:38
  #920 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
at least two Brexiteers that arenít rabid, venom spitting xenophobes.

BV
#MeToo (ironic innit)
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