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Locked Public Records

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Locked Public Records

Old 30th Apr 2019, 08:51
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Don’t forget that some papers, especially the Mail, always seem determined to quote the value of the alleged perpetrator’s house in such articles! Presumably they think it heightens the shock at such a crime if they can show even house owners can commit crime!
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Old 30th Apr 2019, 11:01
  #22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
I am always curious about the 'handles ' attached to people. In this instance 'former Naval officer'. He had retired from the Navy in 1959 aged 37 some 16 years before the murders.

Another recently the person was 29 a former university student. The media seem desperate to hang an employment label, no matter how irrelevant, to everybody. Unless in a reserved occupation almost all men up to the sixties were former Servicemen.

It is as if 'we' are all presumed to fit in one box or another, housewife, builder, doctor, lawyer, MP and does not recognise that we are complex individuals as alike or as different from our neighbour.

He was also a former school boy, former boat builder, gardener etc. They mention these but latch onto one almost exclusively.
Well social status and standing regarding occupations are terribly important as you know.....hence your reason for informing us as to why you left Waitrose when they admitted a family of pig farmers !....the immortal words "there are limits ! " from yourself kindly qualifying your nature here.

I remember the murders but was not aware there is a backstory to them it seems ..until now.

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Old 30th Apr 2019, 22:26
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I am always curious about the 'handles ' attached to people. In this instance 'former Naval officer'.
I've a vague recollection of hearing a journalist explain that such personal details are included to give readers a better idea of what a person was like, hence "35-year old mother of twins" and similar.

Technically, was the accused actually found guilty of this crime by a court of law?
The TNA catalogue record states: "No action case as defendant shot himself dead. The naming of a defendant within this catalogue does not imply guilt."

what fact remains to be disclosed that is a threat to anyone's mental health?
Quite possibly photographs of the victims' bodies, including their wounds.

Coroners' records are also likely to be closed under Section 38
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Old 1st May 2019, 12:30
  #24 (permalink)  
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I have an uncle who died in 1945 at the age of 18 while in Borstal custody. He was brought unconscious to Boston Hospital and died without regaining consciousness. The doctor who issued his death certificate was at pains to set out that he died from pulmonary oedema resulting from prolonged immersion - this is very different from drowning although the symptoms are similar. Because Borstal records are locked for 75 years the family have been unable to obtain details of how he came to suffer "prolonged immersion" sufficient to cause death. Since my uncle is deceased, the records must have been locked in order to protect someone who was still living. When e went to Boston to collect the body, no-one would speak to my grandfather - a coffin was handed over at the gate and he was left to organise getting his dead son back home to Stockton by himself. A Freedom of Information request I made a couple of years ago was not even acknowledged, let alone answered. The records should be unlocked next year but everyone in the family who actually knew uncle Stanley are long dead. Nevertheless, I will dig until I have an answer.
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Old 1st May 2019, 16:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
my wife thinks I should write a book about it.
You will make a fortune if you start to write books.
Maybe not!
But do it for the research and it will be worth it.
From an author of quite a few books.
FF
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Old 1st May 2019, 18:15
  #26 (permalink)  
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Isn't pulmonary oedema the usual cause of death in drowning? That's why it is much faster in fresh water compared to the sea. So I was led to believe by a doctor.
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Old 1st May 2019, 18:25
  #27 (permalink)  
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Neil Rutherford wasn't in a blind date or bender. He had been away for some days and came back with a plan, an automatic pistol and executed them. Presume a grievance which ate into him. Presume he shot all the people on the ground floor and then Hunted the others down before starting a fire, going back to stand next to the owners body and shot himself. It would be interesting to know the gun and how many shots fired ( reloads) to get a view on how collected he was. None survived to a hospital so it was cold bloodily efficient by a man who doesn't seem to have used a gun recently. I reckon he was sober.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 11:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
Neil Rutherford wasn't in a blind date or bender. He had been away for some days and came back with a plan, an automatic pistol and executed them. Presume a grievance which ate into him.
Rejected love perhaps
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Old 4th May 2019, 13:45
  #29 (permalink)  
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Well yes, something along those lines, but to kill everyone in the house and set it on fire. In those days gun crime was very rare and murders still made front page news. We have perhaps become inured to murder suicides but not then I don't think. And this guy was old school, from good family and service discipline. This isn't a raving drunk rushing around firing and missing or wounding, it's cold and efficient.
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Old 25th May 2019, 17:49
  #30 (permalink)  
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Well the prediction that the FoI request would be met with silence turned out to be correct. Thought it was too easy. Shall have one more go then ask the MP to help.
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Old 27th May 2019, 16:40
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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What do you mean by "met with silence"?

The National Archives are subject to the FoI regulations and they must therefore reply to you within the given time frame (20 days (I think) - even if it is to say no. They must also give reasons as to why they are refusing your request. They cannot just file it in the 'too difficult' drawer and hope it goes away.

See this link:

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of...is-turned-down

If they still fail to answer then go through the Information Commissioners office first. He can hand down some eye watering fines to organisations that are trying to ignore legitimate requests (which may not help you but at least focuses their attention on following the regulations).
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Old 27th May 2019, 17:06
  #32 (permalink)  
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Thanks. Heard nothing one way or the other. No acknow!edgement even.Will have another go with a written letter rather than the web form. Thanks for the advice.
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Old 28th May 2019, 12:29
  #33 (permalink)  
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Isn't pulmonary oedema the usual cause of death in drowning? That's why it is much faster in fresh water compared to the sea. So I was led to believe by a doctor.
No it's not. Immersion Pulmonary oedema is a quite distinct condition, often mistaken for drowning.
Immersion Pulmonary Oedema - UKDMC

What do you mean by "met with silence"?
In my own case, exactly that. The request was simply ignored and there was no response whatsoever. Three times - prison service, home office and North Shore prison (as it is today)
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Old 30th May 2019, 05:37
  #34 (permalink)  
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I spoke too soon. Just had an email from them to the effect they are considering the request and will decide by 12June.
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 17:20
  #35 (permalink)  
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FoI request: no joy as predicted here.....

Dear Mr

Thank you for your enquiry of 29th April 2019 regarding a review of:

DPP 2/6239: RUTHERFORD, Neil: murder of Linda SIMCOX, Mary MCINTYRE, Alistair MCINTYRE and John GREEN on 24 September 1976 at Penmaenmawr by shooting. No action case as defendant shot himself dead

Having considered the public interest test we have decided that this information should be withheld. I regret to say this means we cannot make this record open to you or to the public in general.

I previously explained that some of the information in the record is covered by section 38(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. This exempts information that, if it was released, would endanger the physical or mental health of any individual.

A public interest test was considered in consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). The outcome of which is as follows:

Arguments made in favour of disclosure
There is a presumption of openness under FOI.

The interest surrounding criminal cases and transparency of the criminal justice system will increase public awareness of the criminal prosecution process.

Opening this file would contribute towards an historic public record of crime.

Arguments made in favour of non ? disclosure
This file concerns the murder of Linda Simcox, Mary McIntyre, Alistair McIntyre, John Green and the suicide of the murderer, Neil Rutherford, and includes references to events leading up to the murder and details and images of the injuries sustained by the victims and defendant.

The detailed information about the circumstances leading up to the murders and suicide, images and reports of the victims? and defendant?s injuries would not have been in the public domain. The release of this material after such a prolonged period of time would have the same endangering effect on the mental health of the remaining family members of the victims and defendant as releasing it for the first time.

There is a profound public interest in not endangering the mental health of a victim or defendant?s family.

Outcome of the public interest test
The family and friends of the victims and defendant would not have knowledge that these details would be put in the public domain after such a significant amount of time.

The CPS is satisfied that section 38 is engaged and that the public interest in not endangering the mental health of surviving family and friends of the victims and defendant substantially outweighs the public interest in the disclosure of this information.

There is a profound public interest in not endangering the mental health of the victims? and defendant?s remaining family members.

Information within the record is also covered by the exemption at section 40 (2) of the FOI Act. This exempts personal information about a ?third party? (someone other than the requester), if revealing it would break the terms of Data Protection Legislation. Data Protection Legislation prevents personal information from release if it would be unfair or at odds with the reason why it was collected, or where the subject had officially served notice that releasing it would cause them damage or distress. Personal information must be processed lawfully, fairly and in a transparent manner as set out by Art. 5 of the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).

In this case the exemption applies because the record contains the personal and the sensitive personal information of a number of identified individuals assumed still to be living. These individuals have a reasonable expectation of privacy which would not include the release of this information into the public domain by The National Archives during their lifetime. To do so would be likely to cause damage and/or distress and would be a breach of the first data protection principle, which is concerned with the fair, lawful and transparent processing of information of this kind.

If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request or the decision which has been reached, you have the right to ask for an internal review. Internal review requests must be submitted within two months of the date of this response and should be addressed to:
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 20:54
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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This is at once bad news and yet predictable...

And yet - defence of the realm wins the day once more.

How to square that and yet give comfort to the families?

It's a bugger being English sometimes.

Sorry, that's all.

You deserve so much more.
Peace and Love.
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