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Notre-Dame ablaze

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Notre-Dame ablaze

Old 17th Apr 2019, 14:51
  #81 (permalink)  
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Perhaps, but why use flammable wood in the roof which is the main fire risk. I am sure Airbus would be eager to help design composite structures to fill the void and bear the weight of the roof. It would free up substantial interior space for a museum of the the cathedral.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 15:51
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
.

As for money, shouldn't the Vatican flog off some of the artwork it has to pay for it?
To whom ?

Some Saudi who will take the piece install in some gaudy palace never to be seen again ?

Vatican holds these artworks in perpetuity for everyone.

But hey lets sell everything and help the poor, then what ?
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 15:54
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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The trouble is when the start and loads of people turn up to rebuild it wearing yellow jackets, the police will corral and use water canon on them to get them to disperse

I wonder if the Bell that fell will be ok.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 16:01
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Glad to hear the good news story. My own experiences are quite the opposite. Perhaps it's something in the water locally.
It depends on the individual priest.

Some are hunter gatherers who will ask for assistance and work with the best / worst of people to get an outcome. Some are just farmers who just about manage.

Too many are farmers.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 18:44
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Captivep View Post
As an atheist who finds many church buildings extremely beautiful, I can see the sadness of losing a glorious building, but am somewhat perplexed that two billionaires came forward immediately and pledged 200 million euros to fund the renovation; could they not think of anything more useful to humanity to do with the money?

Anyway, assuming they do rebuild it, my suggestion would be not to attempt a pastiche of the original - why not build an ultra-modern glass roof instead?
It's not like they are simply burning the money - it will all be used to pay various people involved in the restoration - with the normal economic multipliers as those people turn around and spend it on stuff that they need or want. It's fundamentally no different than if the government paid for it, except the government has to take the money from other people first (which reduces the economic multiplier).

As for doing a pastiche of the original - it's very, very dangerous to mess with classic beauty. Most of the time you simply end up with something that makes you long for the original.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 19:43
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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It is fortunate indeed that the fire started in the roof, & burned all those old precious timbers away. Why? because as the roof burned, it generated huge heat, and this sucked in loads of "cooler" air to protect the ground floor & perhaps those beautiful windows. I am very far from being religious but this is one of those very rare places on the planet that has "clout" when you go there.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 20:17
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Perhaps, but why use flammable wood in the roof which is the main fire risk. I am sure Airbus would be eager to help design composite structures to fill the void and bear the weight of the roof. It would free up substantial interior space for a museum of the the cathedral.
I should have been paying more attention earlier today when somebody was on TV pointing out their cathedral roof had been repaired without using timber..I’ll see if I can find a reference.

Meanwhile umpteen communes have been rushing to claim they have already volunteered “ their” oaks...
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 21:27
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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I remember a demonstration on Tomorrow's World where a fire and heat proofed paint was applied to an egg that was subjected to a blow lamp for some time. The egg was then cracked open and the still liquid contents poured out. From memory it must have been 25 or more years ago. Apparently the private individual who concocted the paint wanted an immediate £Million for his discovery and a high percentage of the profits. It seems no manufacturer was willing to do this, so the formula died with him.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 21:52
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blossy View Post
I remember a demonstration on Tomorrow's World where a fire and heat proofed paint was applied to an egg that was subjected to a blow lamp for some time. The egg was then cracked open and the still liquid contents poured out. From memory it must have been 25 or more years ago. Apparently the private individual who concocted the paint wanted an immediate £Million for his discovery and a high percentage of the profits. It seems no manufacturer was willing to do this, so the formula died with him.
Sometimes you don't want heat resistance.

On this occasion it will bring France together to get the work done, doubt there will be any Yellow vest protests about it either.

Lord works in mysterious ways.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 22:27
  #90 (permalink)  
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I was brought up being very much involved in the church, in particular in the environment of an Abbey that dates from 674 - though ongoing additions and modifications continued until the early 20th Century, with the bulk of the structure from the 12th Century and the 20th Century addition was styled as if from the 13th Century.

I was, therefore, shocked when I visited Coventry Cathedral very soon after its completion - I consider myself to be a traditionalist, however many English cathedrals owe their current appearance to 19th Century 'restorations'.I

If the French were to build a new cathedral in the 21st Century I wonder whether it would resemble Notre Dame or Coventry Cathedral.
AIUI, Dresden's Frauenkirche was reconstructed in 1994 to 2004 to the original design.


I question why the French are seeking new designs for the spire - is it not possible to recreate to the original 13th Century design (as was done in the 19th Century)?
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 00:04
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
..........It's fundamentally no different than if the government paid for it, except the government has to take the money from other people first (which reduces the economic multiplier).

........
And how do you suppose the wealthy business men got the money. Own a press?
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 01:12
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
And how do you suppose the wealthy business men got the money. Own a press?
While there are exceptions, wealthy business people made money by creating (or adding) value. Iron ore has minimal value - but finished steel is quite useful and hence valuable.
With a few exceptions, governments do not create value. They redistribute it, they don't create it.
When a government prints more money, they still are not creating value because the additional printed money tends to reduce the value of the existing money (i.e. inflation).
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 02:50
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Man arrested entering St. Patrick's cathedral (NYC) carrying 4 gallons of gasoline and two bottles of lighter fluid.
Told police he was taking a shortcut through the cathedral to his car, which had run out of gas.
Car was found and checked. Not out of gas.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 02:58
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
It depends on the individual priest.

Some are hunter gatherers who will ask for assistance and work with the best / worst of people to get an outcome. Some are just farmers who just about manage.

Too many are farmers.

Not all who are called attend MBA programs before they attend to their flock.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 06:43
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Phosphoric acid makes wood incapable of keeping up burning. I have no idea what it does to longevity and mechanical properties.

Protecting the egg from a blowtorch is a question of heat conduction not much else. Most protecting paints I have met work on being intumenescent an char formingforming.

Old buildings should be restored to some old configuration, warts and all.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 10:14
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post



Not all who are called attend MBA programs before they attend to their flock.
But to be able to attend to a flock here is a lot of education involved, too many good people weeded out and those of a more liberal view were allowed stay, irrespective of what they were caught doing.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 13:45
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post


I question why the French are seeking new designs for the spire - is it not possible to recreate to the original 13th Century design (as was done in the 19th Century)?
It's probably to make their mark on the building and to commemorate the fire in history for future generations, BTW I haven't heard anything about the Catholic church, ie the Vatican putting their hands in their considerable coffers to help out yet.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 14:04
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
It's probably to make their mark on the building and to commemorate the fire in history for future generations, BTW I haven't heard anything about the Catholic church, ie the Vatican putting their hands in their considerable coffers to help out yet.
French state own the building not the Catholic church. I also think you will find many many Catholics are already putting their hands in their pockets to contribute. Vatican is where head of Church sits but everytime a church is damaged it is not the Vatican that pays for its repair, it is not its property.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 14:05
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Given there were concerns with the existing stone structure before the fire, I wonder whether a much lighter steel-framed roof would be easier on the remaining structure. Reinstate the stone vault, recreate the original (lead?) cladding, and the building would look exactly the same from all angles, while potentially being better able to survive the future.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 14:10
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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I've got to say I agree with the idea of using the best methods available today to repair the hidden parts of the structure. I can see no merit in replacing the medieval timber structure with a modern copy, that's just going to create a problem for future generations. We have access to materials and construction methods today that medieval builders wouldn't have hesitated to use, if they had access to them. We know that great buildings like Notre Dame pushed the boundaries of technology for their day, so a precedent has already been set for doing the same, IMHO.
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