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BREXIT

Old 9th Dec 2020, 20:40
  #7561 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Wiggy, call me cynical if you will....https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...s-UK-hold.html

Ineos bosses insisted they were not trying to exploit a grants merry-go-round by playing off one country against another, as other manufacturers have appeared to do in the past, but were looking to switch for purely commercial reasons. ‘Grants are not the main issue. We are not playing games in terms of who can give us most support,' Tennant explained......

Former Nissan chief Carlos Ghosn used the grants ‘merry go round’ tactic to great effect when negotiating state help for Sunderland, frequently threatening to shift production or deny a new model unless extra help were forthcoming.

State and grant aid for members of the European Union has to comply with strict competition rules to avoid member states unfairly bumping up inducements to companies to set up within their borders. However, the rules can be deftly side-stepped with aid for roads and new infrasturucture which are not as tightly regulated.

With the UK leaving the EU formally at the end of the year, it is unlikely it would be bound by such rules, subject to any deal being negotiated or not......
“The Brits are perfectly capable of managing the Brits and don’t need Brussels telling them how to manage things. I just don’t believe in the concept of a United States of Europe. It’s not viable.” - Brexit-backing billionaire Jim Ratcliffe.

He pays his taxes in Monaco, far away from Bridgend and Sunderland. Why do people listen to these ****bags? They do not care about the wellbeing of the working class.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 21:10
  #7562 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
I asked what percentage of companies exported to the EU not percentage of business. I think from memory its 1% of companies who export goods to the EU meaning the 99% who dont still have to comply with every EU directive even though none of thier goods go there. market without being able to influence them.
Where on this earth do you get that ridiculous idea?

Of course you don't have to meet EU standards if you are not selling there. In the home market you only need to meet home standards.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 22:33
  #7563 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
I asked what percentage of companies exported to the EU not percentage of business. I think from memory its 1% of companies who export goods to the EU meaning the 99% who dont still have to comply with every EU directive even though none of thier goods go there. The issue that the EU is insisting on is that if they change thier regulations then the UK has to follow suit or suffer tarriffs. Many countries have not been in the "club" but still have trade deals. Canada, Japan to name but two and they do not abide by the club rules in their own markets. There is no issue with supplying dusters with a product to be sold in the EU but the EU is also insisting that the UK supplies dusters to the domestic market even though we are no longer part of the "club"

So it really is simple, any prodicts going into the EU are supplied to their regulations just as any products supplied to other countries are supplied to theirs.

So you know that if the USA insists on a particular specification the UK ensures the goods it supplies into their market meet that spec. It does not mean the UK also has to adopt that spec in its own market on pain of tarriffs and to adopt any new regulations into its own market without being able to influence them.
Danny G
Brexit Party were claiming circa 5% in the run up to referendum, so not sure where your 1% comes from. The Govt does not keep the record you require as you may know, and the only way to get an idea is to look at Tax. If you look at the Tax data on line about SME and large business the figure goes up to between 8-9%.

Regards
Mr Mac
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 22:34
  #7564 (permalink)  
 
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Brexit talks break up without agreement

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55249561
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 00:16
  #7565 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Where on this earth do you get that ridiculous idea?

Of course you don't have to meet EU standards if you are not selling there. In the home market you only need to meet home standards.
Business to business is one issue. What if a company cuts costs by subcontracting its cleaning to a firm that employs slave labour? Is not that unfair if the company then sells its products in the EU?
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 06:13
  #7566 (permalink)  
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Non Guardian readers, and those whose fantasies involve regressing the UK to a mythical era, may not be amused by the analysis of Mr Steve Bell............

Steve Bell on Boris Johnson's last-ditch Brexit dinner in Brussels - cartoon | Opinion | The Guardian
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 08:54
  #7567 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if what happened in Brussels has more than a little to do with with a certain upcoming case at SCOTUS? Perhaps Boris thinks Trump's is still in with a shout and will come riding to the rescue with a massive trade deal...
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 08:57
  #7568 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Business to business is one issue. What if a company cuts costs by subcontracting its cleaning to a firm that employs slave labour? Is not that unfair if the company then sells its products in the EU?
Nonsense.
Slave labour is illegal here and in the EU. Nothing to do with standards.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:10
  #7569 (permalink)  
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" well, hactually, we were planning on renting a little place in the country or by the coast anyway, or borrowing our neighbours second home for a couple of weeks, so who needs the damned EU and their petty little restrictions ! " ...as overheard in various Waitrose cafes,........ with a side dish of a copy of the Mail....

Hopefully, this means we won't be subjected to the vomit inducing voice overs, and images, promoting river cruises in 2021.....will Carlisle become the UK''s new number 1 tourist hot spot we wonder !

From the Guardian....

UK holidaymakers barred from EU after 1 January under Covid rules

European commission indicates Britons will face ban on nonessential travel at end of Brexit transition

UK holidaymakers barred from EU after 1 January under Covid rules | Brexit | The Guardian
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:21
  #7570 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Nonsense.
Slave labour is illegal here and in the EU. Nothing to do with standards.
A more realistic example is:- if you are selling Meat Pies to the EU, we could buy US Beef put it into meat pies that would not meet their standards.

Trade deal not about sovereignty, we can import whatever we want for home consumption, or indeed to other countries.
The EU are saying we ARE going to control what you send to us, if you read the Withdrawl Agreement there are dozens of ways that the UK could adopt different standards that the EU have.

Fisheries is about sovereignty, we should control our own waters, foreign boats will continue be allowed, the question is how many, for how long, that will have to be settled separately if there is no trade deal.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:22
  #7571 (permalink)  
 
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That is settled then. I'm fleeing the country on the 27th. I will report on the situation in France from then onward. I hope de Pfeffel enjoyed the fish.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:29
  #7572 (permalink)  
 
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The father-in-law let slip at a family lunch that he had voted leave. He was the only one at the table to have done so.
That led my brother-in-law to ask how he had come to that decision.
BIL then went through all the social and political implications. I briefly gave some of the economic reasons for remaining part of Europe.
When asked what he was thinking he replied that he didn't have to think about it. Having grown up during the war he didn't like Germans.
Needless to say his children and grandchildren now see him in a different light..
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:37
  #7573 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
I wrote:
So, are you telling me that the vitriol against resistance to the UK becoming a satellite of the EU and the ad-hominem attacks that I've seen over the past fortnight on this thread are non-representative of the Remain mindset?



I didn't ascribe an extreme position to anyone - made up or otherwise. On the contrary, it's Remainers who accuse the Leave voter of stupidity and/or immorality - not to mention hypocrisy. And I notice you are not claiming that the unpleasantness I referred to is unrepresentative of Remain rhetoric.

Admittedly I'm not a regular on Jet Blast discussions, but if you think personal attacks are acceptable here you might like to look at the forum's rules of engagement.

You write of the frustration of what you believe will be a "train wreck", but the referendum was a democratic choice finally handed to the electorate by Parliament after many years of denial, despite much public dissatisfaction with an EU that nevertheless remained intransigent. The campaign was messy in some elements of both sides and HMG was partial.

Frustration? Many of the key-members on the losing side have spent four and a half years trying to overturn the result, including incessant demands for a re-run of the vote in the country - or even sending the decision back to a pro-remain parliament. And, adding insult to injury, they claim correctly that many Leave voters have since died - their decision remaining unfulfilled - and that the newly enfranchised would secure them the result they failed to achieve in 2016.

But Remainers have failed in those attempts, and the only question now is what kind of trade deal - if any - HMG can agree with a European Union that remains determined to punish us for resigning our membership; pour encourager les autres. It will never publicly admit that, of course. Its apparatchiks - with honourable exceptions like Guy Verhofstadt - dissemble, with claims of undying friendship and regret while, for example, humiliating our previous Prime Minister.

Yet no other nation seeking a trade deal with the EU would accept, or has accepted, being subject to the jurisdiction of an EU court, creating a customs border between its own provinces, or giving EU countries almost unlimited access to its territorial waters. And please don't tell me that the alternative in our case would be a hard border with our friends in the Republic.

If EU membership is so advantageous to a nation, one might ask, why would they need to use such coercion to dissuade others from leaving?
Chris,

Remainers do not argue for the UK to be a satellite of the EU. The latter is the position of precisely no one that I can see. Opposing this imagined satellite state is your position and that of many convinced Brexiteers. You are painting an imaginary foe as a means to have the argument you want to. That is the extreme position you are ascribing. Deny it if you wish.

Yes, I have read the rules of Jet Blast. They are not always kept. Are insults exchanged? Yes. But they are pretty low order in the scheme if things. Lobbing virtual eggs at each other is fun sometimes. If posts stay it is doubtless because the mods show some discretion in the tools they use to deal with transgressions. There are some excellent posts on here and there is spam. Some are sophisticated and informative; others for the amusement of trolls. Compared to many of the platforms out there, this is a pretty civilized place.

You see vitriol in the posts of many remainers; I see frustration at the sheer inadequacy, wrong-headedness and childishness of Brexit. I also remember many absurd triumphalist posts made here by those converted to the holy religion of unqualified Brexit. The fervent conviction only matched by an adherence to a series of dog whistle ideas at the expense of reason and due critique.

If you believe that the referendum was democratic, then you have lower expectations of democracy than me. For something as monumentally important as Brexit the UK needed a much more sophisticated, informed, considered and nuanced national discussion. We got nothing like that and as a consequence, there is no national unity or vision. And a path to this is nowhere in sight. The coming years will see the UK struggle mightily in a search for identity and economic relevance. The Brexit camp may have won the vote, but they have thereby inherited a complete mess and I sincerely doubt they will be able to sort out.

So yes, whilst Brexit is a legal fact and I recognize its reality, I don’t accept it. I believe it is the consequence of national immaturity and a grave misstep for the UK, which lead to more poverty and a loss of international influence. And ironically, because of being worse off, there will be less scope for sovereign self-determination, not more. Worse still, it could very well lead to the break-up of the UK. And in twenty or thirty years, when many triumphalist Brexit voters are dead, the electorate of tomorrow will ask wtf were they thinking?

I also think your point that respecting the wishes of voters who have deceased and will not be part of the uncertain world they have voted for is a pretty poor an argument. In fact, I think it is ridiculous. This isn’t the last will and testament of the dead; it is about the future. And by the same principle, I think questioning the ethics of ex-pats who use their vote to shape the future of the UK when they are not there or are less affected by the changes is entirely appropriate in the context of this discussion.

I don’t really have any expectation that anything I have written here will influence your viewpoint. But this post is not just for you; it is also making objection to Brexit on the part of fellow remainers and an appeal to those persuaded by Brexit who are not so anti-EU brainwashed that they can see only the devil incarnate.

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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:47
  #7574 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Business to business is one issue. What if a company cuts costs by subcontracting its cleaning to a firm that employs slave labour? Is not that unfair if the company then sells its products in the EU?
Richard W
You would be breaking the Modern Slavery Act in that instance which as you may know is a Gold Plated UK Govt only thing. Indeed the only other place with such legislation is the state of California and it is not as tight as that in theUK. The Act is nothing to do with the EU.

Kind regards
Mr Mac
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:50
  #7575 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you, Torquetalk. That says it all.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 10:01
  #7576 (permalink)  
 
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SallyAnn 1234
Where on this earth do you get that ridiculous idea?
Of course you don't have to meet EU standards if you are not selling there. In the home market you only need to meet home standards.
The point is, Sally, until 1st Jan the UK does have to implement all EU standards, however high, low or inappropriate.

One objection I have to the EU is their way of operating. When the EU decided to implement its own set of aviation rules, rather than participating in JAA, they built an expensive office block in Köln, filled it mostly with lawyers and set up a Rule Making Body. 14 years later they set up a Policy Making Body to determine what rules should be implemented. Cart, horse? And is aviation any safer ?
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 10:19
  #7577 (permalink)  
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EU Commission has started to issue no-deal contingency plans to come into force on 1st Jan.

These include a proposed “interim” fisheries regulation which would continue the current EU access to UK waters until a full deal is done.

So even at this stage negotiations go on in all but name - presumably the others, including on aviation, are contingent on the latter...

https://www.aviation24.be/miscellane...deal-scenario/
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 10:40
  #7578 (permalink)  
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Presumably these have been awaiting signature pending the outcome of the latest talks.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/134352...it-trade-deal/


Britain seals post-Brexit trade deals with Vietnam & Singapore

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...oid-disruption

Kenya Signs Post-Brexit Trade Pact With U.K. to Avoid Disruption

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk...162553264.html

UK signs post-Brexit trade deal with Canada

https://www.cityam.com/uk-signs-trad...y-and-iceland/

UK signs post-Brexit trade deal with Norway and Iceland

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...tion-agreement

UK and Egypt sign Association Agreement
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 10:52
  #7579 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Presumably these have been awaiting signature pending the outcome of the latest talks.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/134352...it-trade-deal/


Britain seals post-Brexit trade deals with Vietnam & Singapore

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...oid-disruption

Kenya Signs Post-Brexit Trade Pact With U.K. to Avoid Disruption

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk...162553264.html

UK signs post-Brexit trade deal with Canada

https://www.cityam.com/uk-signs-trad...y-and-iceland/

UK signs post-Brexit trade deal with Norway and Iceland

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...tion-agreement

UK and Egypt sign Association Agreement
Are all these "copy and pastes" from EU deals I wonder. Haven't got time to read all the links!
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 11:04
  #7580 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Presumably these have been awaiting signature pending the outcome of the latest talks.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/134352...it-trade-deal/


Britain seals post-Brexit trade deals with Vietnam & Singapore

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...oid-disruption

Kenya Signs Post-Brexit Trade Pact With U.K. to Avoid Disruption

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk...162553264.html

UK signs post-Brexit trade deal with Canada

https://www.cityam.com/uk-signs-trad...y-and-iceland/

UK signs post-Brexit trade deal with Norway and Iceland

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...tion-agreement

UK and Egypt sign Association Agreement
How many of these are actually new, or rather how many already existed and have now been adapted slightly and suddenly given greater prominence in order to make political capital to support the assertation the UK will duly become a formidable trading power once we've left the EU ?

And out of interest, how much total revenue is expected to be generated by these agreements....in contrast to the lost revenue from trading with a trading bloc known as the EU ?

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 10th Dec 2020 at 12:39.
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