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BREXIT

Old 3rd Aug 2019, 08:56
  #721 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Especially if once done the leader then became Joe Biden.
Or Boris Johnson.

Think about that.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 09:25
  #722 (permalink)  
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Logically wouldn't becoming the 51st state also really, stupendously and brilliantly upset the "take back control brigade"?

Up to a point but in the USA, states have rights and those rights are both protected, even if were only by the gun lobby and respected by the elected in DC.
In the European Evil Empire, the unelected dictatorship partnership respects nothing and lusts only for more centralised power. It is a nasty parody of the United States.
So in the 51st state example, the take back control brigade would still have their self respect and their autonomy. They could form the backbone of an International Brigade, fighting to free the smaller European countries from the invasive armies that will have broken border sanctity to impose central control at some point in the future, the legacy of the present president of the EU, the militarist expansionist Ursula von der Leyen.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 09:29
  #723 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
In the European Evil Empire, the unelected dictatorship partnership respects nothing and lusts only for more centralised power.
It's one of the reasons I voted leave.

The sensible approach to me would be that the bigger an organisation grows the more power it devolves to a regional level. The EU is quite the opposite; authority is more and more centralised. Power only moves one way, and it's always towards Brussels.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 09:31
  #724 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
Logically wouldn't becoming the 51st state also really, stupendously and brilliantly upset the "take back control brigade"?

Up to a point but in the USA, states have rights and those rights are both protected, even if were only by the gun lobby and respected by the elected in DC.
In the European Evil Empire, the unelected dictatorship partnership respects nothing and lusts only for more centralised power. It is a nasty parody of the United States.
So in the 51st state example, the take back control brigade would still have their self respect and their autonomy. They could form the backbone of an International Brigade, fighting to free the smaller European countries from the invasive armies that will have broken border sanctity to impose central control at some point in the future, the legacy of the present president of the EU, the militarist expansionist Ursula von der Leyen.
Pro tip from me: 'whatever the voices inside your head tell you: do not stop taking your medication...'
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 09:58
  #725 (permalink)  
 
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Well, having rightly had a one week ban for being too emotional the world hasn't changed much

1 People still going on about un-elected bureaucrats-who by definition are always unelected just like our current PM is un-elected and has the tiniest majority but that s apparently just fine.
2 Our friends in the USA have made it clear that any tax on Google and Amazon etc who steal billions from HMRC every year will mean no trade deal. America FIRST you know. The Eu on the other hand can pursue these people because it is too big to mess about with and doesn't depend on USA.
3 Carney at the BoE is accused of reviving project fear, something that is fair enough as most of it has come true with 1 GBP= 1 EUR and the USD heading the same way: UK car industry has lost thousands of jobs, the Japanese are threatening to pull their UK investments and UK business especially in retail and travel are on the skids, so he doesn't have to revive it because much of it has already come true.
4 Boris makes another promise he cannot keep about nationwide high speed internet, which will 'turbo charge Britain . of course a lot of countries already have much faster speeds than the UK and as usual with the PM he didnt' check with the people who actually have to do the work.

I hope the mods find this acceptable and I apologise to them and anyone else I may have upset through being a bit emotional about the state of my much beloved country
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 10:12
  #726 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Well, having rightly had a one week ban for being too emotional the world hasn't changed much

1 People still going on about un-elected bureaucrats-who by definition are always unelected just like our current PM is un-elected and has the tiniest majority but that s apparently just fine.
2 Our friends in the USA have made it clear that any tax on Google and Amazon etc who steal billions from HMRC every year will mean no trade deal. America FIRST you know. The Eu on the other hand can pursue these people because it is too big to mess about with and doesn't depend on USA.
3 Carney at the BoE is accused of reviving project fear, something that is fair enough as most of it has come true with 1 GBP= 1 EUR and the USD heading the same way: UK car industry has lost thousands of jobs, the Japanese are threatening to pull their UK investments and UK business especially in retail and travel are on the skids, so he doesn't have to revive it because much of it has already come true.
4 Boris makes another promise he cannot keep about nationwide high speed internet, which will 'turbo charge Britain . of course a lot of countries already have much faster speeds than the UK and as usual with the PM he didnt' check with the people who actually have to do the work.

I hope the mods find this acceptable and I apologise to them and anyone else I may have upset through being a bit emotional about the state of my much beloved country
And added to that Jeremy Corbyn is still in denial as the the problem with the Labour party following last week's bi-election - the problem is of course him and his cronies that are effectively allowing the Liberal Democrats to morph into, essentially into something like the Liberal European Party. How different it could all be were there to be a half competent leader at the Labour helm. I suppose you could say the same about the new Tory administration.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 11:11
  #727 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
.......just like our current PM is un-elected.....
He was elected by his constituents, his own MPs, and his party.

We do not elect Prime Ministers.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 12:22
  #728 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
.in the USA, states have rights and those rights are both protected, even if were only by the gun lobby and respected by the elected in DC.
In the European Evil Empire, the unelected dictatorship partnership respects nothing
FWIW in the context of guns the French "hunt" has the protected right to roam the countryside with firearms of a type that would be illegal in the UK... not everything is as harmonised as some would like people to think.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 12:38
  #729 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
...not everything is as harmonised as some would like people to think.
In the EU each member state has the right to interpret most European rules as they wish.
What is puzzling is, some UK citizens seem to feel that the rules imposed by their own government are inspired/ordered/enforced by the EU.
What is even more puzzling is, why has the UK asked for so many delays before leaving the EU ?
The nagging question on the continent is, will they finally leave or will they not ?
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 13:30
  #730 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt
The nagging question on the continent is, will they finally leave or will they not ?
Now Chamberlain is no longer PM we are out on 31/10.

Be careful what you wish for
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 15:50
  #731 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
In the EU each member state has the right to interpret most European rules as they wish.
What is puzzling is, some UK citizens seem to feel that the rules imposed by their own government are inspired/ordered/enforced by the EU.
What is even more puzzling is, why has the UK asked for so many delays before leaving the EU ?
The nagging question on the continent is, will they finally leave or will they not ?
I sense a majority of those who voted to leave in 2016 wanted us to leave last March. It is the UK Parliament which is holding things up, not the UK population as a whole.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 17:22
  #732 (permalink)  
 
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Spot on Yellowtriumph - you hit the nail right on the head. This democratic will of the UK has been torn apart by a pathetic government and in the main by a Europhile Prime Minister Theresa May-not.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 17:23
  #733 (permalink)  
 
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Welcome back pb! I do feel for you, trapped in a world of negativity and terrified of a future outside of the EU...

I could run through your last post point by point, but it would take too long and probably not achieve much. Suffice to say the actuality is vastly different to the picture you paint. The economy has continued to grow unsustainably in spite of the leave vote and shows no real signs of slowing down. We're building new homes at an alarming rate (300k per annum), population continuing to rise at roughly 250k per annum, over a million new homes planned for the SE, HS2, LHR R3, this is NOT a country headed for economic disaster. What it is though is a failed state being run by the few for the benefit of big business and those in authority.

The car manufacturer point is another interesting one. I agree with you that the automotive industry is going through a seismic change, their very own digital revolution, and will stick my neck out here and say the industry today will be barely recognisable in as few as 10-15yrs time. That's got absolutely nothing to do with Brexit though!

I know I'll never change your mind but I'd love to understand WHAT it is your so fearful about?
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 18:15
  #734 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
The economy has continued to grow unsustainably in spite of the leave vote and shows no real signs of slowing down. We're building new homes at an alarming rate (300k per annum)
Just to pick up 2 points. Firstly the Office of National Statistics reports that rolling three-month growth slowed for the second consecutive month after growth of 0.5% in Quarter 1 2019, and the Bank of England has amended itís growth forecasts for 2019 and 2020 to 1.3% in each year, a long way off the target 2%

Starts on new homes fell in the first quarter, with long term the trend flattening around 220,000 per year according to the FT.

Was anything else you said rooted in reality?
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 18:17
  #735 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
I sense a majority of those who voted to leave in 2016 wanted us to leave last March. It is the UK Parliament which is holding things up, not the UK population as a whole.
How come ?
The UK political system seems a mysterious and complicated affair, even viewed from close neighbouring countries.
Isn't the government there to just do its job, rule the country, while the Parliament votes laws and important decisions ?
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 19:09
  #736 (permalink)  
 
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@Fly Airprt I would not try to make sense of this Brexit business. Most people around me (I spend a fair amount of time in the UK (Suffolk) and have lived and paid taxes there for about 30 years) and all the Brexiters I know voted Leave to give Cameron a kick up the "horse", all the while being persuaded Remain would win. Leave was an accident and all of them now are sorry and want to remain. A few opportunists like BJ and NF have seen an opening and are having a go at it but they themselves do not even believe they can be successful. You can actually "feel" it around, there is now a huge number of people, mainly the youngs (I have a 30 years old daughter and a 32 years old son and all their friends and relations will vote Remain when the next vote comes round, probably very soon. It's the same around the rest of the EU where populists have made themselves heard louder than usual but like Italy (look what's going on there!) and Eastern European countries, even Putin... they are on the way back to where they come from... Personnally, I am 100% sure the UK will never leave (even if I often think the rest of the EU would be better off without them... but after all, I do love around 50% of the British people I know and would be sad to see them leave, even more so the Irish and the Scotish) This is mostly an English tantrum... they'll get over it.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 19:34
  #737 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alicopter View Post
@Fly Airprt I would not try to make sense of this Brexit business. Most people around me (I spend a fair amount of time in the UK (Suffolk) and have lived and paid taxes there for about 30 years) and all the Brexiters I know voted Leave to give Cameron a kick up the "horse", all the while being persuaded Remain would win. Leave was an accident and all of them now are sorry and want to remain. A few opportunists like BJ and NF have seen an opening and are having a go at it but they themselves do not even believe they can be successful. You can actually "feel" it around, there is now a huge number of people, mainly the youngs (I have a 30 years old daughter and a 32 years old son and all their friends and relations will vote Remain when the next vote comes round, probably very soon. It's the same around the rest of the EU where populists have made themselves heard louder than usual but like Italy (look what's going on there!) and Eastern European countries, even Putin... they are on the way back to where they come from... Personnally, I am 100% sure the UK will never leave (even if I often think the rest of the EU would be better off without them... but after all, I do love around 50% of the British people I know and would be sad to see them leave, even more so the Irish and the Scotish) This is mostly an English tantrum... they'll get over it.
While there are ample examples of membership of the EU bringing positive benefits to life in the UK, our politicians have adopted a policy of maximum resistance to change, especially where cash has to be spent. Raising the standards of animal welfare, health and safety legislation, and general welfare provisions for the disadvantaged in society, are all very laudible but hit the profits of UK plc. UK politicians have spent the last couple of decades blaming the EU for their own shortcomings and resisted change by insisting on various opt outs and delays. The electorate are not fools, they can clearly see where the blame lies and it is not necessarily with the EU. The EU is used as a scapegoat by our inadequate leaders. By leaving the EU, UK politicians will once more become accountable to the electorate. No more passing the buck. Sure we (the people) would be happy to continue trading with the EU and enjoying many of the other benefits, but not at the expense of giving our politicians a get out whenever unpopular decisions need to be taken or enforced. If the UK is not prepared to dive fully into the EU, adopt the Euro and strive to achieve equivalence with the other first tier EU nations, then it is better to leave.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 19:38
  #738 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alicopter View Post
.......all the Brexiters I know voted Leave to give Cameron a kick up the "horse", all the while being persuaded Remain would win. Leave was an accident and all of them now are sorry and want to remain.
I think you're speaking to the wrong people. Absolutely nobody I know who voted to leave has changed their minds.

You've only got to look at how the Brexit party came from nowhere to become the biggest party in the recent EU elections to see the strength of feeling.

We're leaving. Get used to it.
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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 19:42
  #739 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alicopter View Post
Personnally, I am 100% sure the UK will never leave (even if I often think the rest of the EU would be better off without them... but after all, I do love around 50% of the British people I know and would be sad to see them leave, even more so the Irish and the Scotish) This is mostly an English tantrum... they'll get over it.
With you on that.


Everybody in Europe is being so fed up with the UK little game that although most reasonable people still think the leave decision was unwise, the "let them go, and the sooner the better" is now predominant.
Everybody in Europe is flabbergasted that the British politicians and voters didn't even think of the Nortern Ireland situation.
They're dancing on a powder keg, and still continue to argue while everybody else is waiting (im)patiently for them to make up their mind...
And as you say, surely the rest of the EU would be better off without such a partner as the UK has been to date...
Maybe if someone in the EU stood up and kicked them out, to help them take decisions ;-)

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Old 3rd Aug 2019, 19:58
  #740 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post

You've only got to look at how the Brexit party came from nowhere to become the biggest party in the recent EU elections to see the strength of feeling.
Many in Europe don't think much of those politicians "from nowhere", who were about to leave, but stayed, got elected just to do nothing at the EU parliament.

Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
We're leaving. Get used to it.
Maybe the UK has "been leaving" for too long. They should have left, by now ;-)
Or maybe they're not sure they wanna leave ?
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