Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

BREXIT

Old 9th May 2019, 17:29
  #641 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 941
Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Nothing wrong with empires and colonies two and three hundred years ago, without them the world today would be just one great big present day Africa. History shows that the UK were among the more civilised of colonists, far less cruel than the French or Portuguese, for example and more inclined than others to develop a nations resources rather than pillage them. Not facts that appeal to British Empire apologists of course, but facts nevertheless.
Ah, facts and the "Glorious " ( vomit at will ) Empire.

Here's a few that seem to have escaped your jingoistic glazed eyes......and it was frightfully decent of you to mention natural resources as well...nothing like a bit of Class A distribution to swell the coffers !.....oh, and we didn't keep our capability to subjugate just those foreign types in their own countries, not the British, no sah !..we were just as ruthless with our own population.....never ones to rest on our laurels, we're now doing a more modern reprise on the population in the form of.....Brexit.

You may notice, that, strangely, there is a strong correlation over the years as to the demographic which gains the most from our little excursions across the globe...and those so fervently advocating our departure from the EU....

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rimes-memorial

https://www.oddhistorian.com/10-wors...ritish-empire/

As you were in Aus for some tme, have you noticed any bemused looks from the locals in Derbyshire when you greet them with " G'day m'duck ".....the dulcet Aussie accent being hard to miss.?

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 9th May 2019 at 17:45.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 17:45
  #642 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: yes
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Nothing wrong with empires and colonies two and three hundred years ago, without them the world today would be just one great big present day Africa. History shows that the UK were among the more civilised of colonists, far less cruel than the French or Portuguese, for example and more inclined than others to develop a nations resources rather than pillage them. Not facts that appeal to British Empire apologists of course, but facts nevertheless.
Oh dear! Where do you even start with that attitude?

Yes you're right the English were more civilised when it came to plunder, oppression, rape of countries they acquired by invading and defeating the savages who dwelled there. In fact the natives should be properly grateful they were incorporated into the civilised British empire rather than those vicious European countries who are even now cruelly oppressing the noble British people.

The empire is nothing to be embarrassed about or ashamed of unless you support the idea that invading other countries to acquire their resources is actually a positive thing. Which you clearly do. Yet you feel no shame all.

The empire was a good thing for the British mostly the English mostly the rich and the aristocracy. For the colonised it was occupation and exploitation no more no less.
Steepclimb is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 18:33
  #643 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,693
For the colonised it was occupation and exploitation no more no less.
The why are they all breaking their necks trying to get to the United Kingdom?
Fareastdriver is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 18:58
  #644 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: yes
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
The why are they all breaking their necks trying to get to the United Kingdom?
The mess you left, that's why. Do you even know your own history? That's the price you pay for ancestors conduct in the past. Despite British hubris about civilising the empire it was always about exploitation, keeping the natives in their place. A combination of racism and exploitation. Making them little brown skinned Britons was not on the agenda. It was never about enriching and civilising the colonies. Keep them poor and barefoot. It was even tried on the Americans we know how that ended. But they learned bad lessons from their former overlords.

A great deal of current unrest is directly connected to British activities from the the Middle East to Africa to Afghanistan to Pakistan. Some of it more recent than you might prefer to admit. Yes other countries played their but need to own your country's part in this mess.

'Send them all back' you might say but that's exactly what they would have said about the British.

Legacy of empire.
Steepclimb is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 19:52
  #645 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,650
Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Nothing wrong with empires and colonies two and three hundred years ago, without them the world today would be just one great big present day Africa. History shows that the UK were among the more civilised of colonists, far less cruel than the French or Portuguese, for example and more inclined than others to develop a nations resources rather than pillage them. Not facts that appeal to British Empire apologists of course, but facts nevertheless.
I see the righteous have jumped.

The Dutch were kicked out of Indonesia. The Italians from Africa and the Germans likewise. We were ejected from Africa too but for the worst perhaps the Belgians who simply abandoned the Congo. The French are still active in Africa assisted by us.

Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 20:41
  #646 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 545
Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
The mess you left, that's why. Do you even know your own history? That's the price you pay for ancestors conduct in the past. Despite British hubris about civilising the empire it was always about exploitation, keeping the natives in their place. A combination of racism and exploitation. Making them little brown skinned Britons was not on the agenda. It was never about enriching and civilising the colonies. Keep them poor and barefoot. It was even tried on the Americans we know how that ended. But they learned bad lessons from their former overlords.

A great deal of current unrest is directly connected to British activities from the the Middle East to Africa to Afghanistan to Pakistan. Some of it more recent than you might prefer to admit. Yes other countries played their but need to own your country's part in this mess.

'Send them all back' you might say but that's exactly what they would have said about the British.

Legacy of empire.
A popular, but inaccurate view of the world I believe. Perhaps you fail to notice the tribalism and religious sects at the centre of most of today's current conflicts? Less about wanting land or resources and all about a desire to exterminate those who don't believe in the same gods. Even NI is still divided on sectarian lines. That is where the issues really lie.
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 21:40
  #647 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: West Country
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
A popular, but inaccurate view of the world I believe. Perhaps you fail to notice the tribalism and religious sects at the centre of most of today's current conflicts? Less about wanting land or resources and all about a desire to exterminate those who don't believe in the same gods. Even NI is still divided on sectarian lines. That is where the issues really lie.
Exactly so. Now add in global over-population and anyone can see the problems getting ever worse.

Blossy is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 22:13
  #648 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: yes
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
A popular, but inaccurate view of the world I believe. Perhaps you fail to notice the tribalism and religious sects at the centre of most of today's current conflicts? Less about wanting land or resources and all about a desire to exterminate those who don't believe in the same gods. Even NI is still divided on sectarian lines. That is where the issues really lie.
Who the hell do you think introduced sectarianism to the North of Ireland. You really don't know your own history. Look up the Ulster plantation. Do you honestly think Irish people split between Catholic and Protestant? The protestants were by and large Scottish and English colonists planted in Ireland in order to pacify the country. They were and are foreigners designed to suppress the native population. Ireland was dominated and ruled by a minority of outsiders the British, for centuries. After a rebellion part of it gained a sort of independence. Meanwhile in Northern Ireland the last refuge of the colonists who believe themselves 'under siege' surrounded by the 'mere natives'.
The English did that.
Meanwhile in rest of the empire Britain exploited the differences the tribalism and religious differences. If you want one example look at Pakistan and India. That's the legacy of the empire.

The English were not the positive influence in the world they like to believe.

The remarkable ignorance shown here really puts some perspective on the motivation for Brexit. A fantasy borne out of false history and lies.
Steepclimb is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 22:16
  #649 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: yes
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Blossy View Post
Exactly so. Now add in global over-population and anyone can see the problems getting ever worse.
Absolute nonsense. Take responsibility for your nation's responsibility.
Steepclimb is offline  
Old 9th May 2019, 22:44
  #650 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 545
Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
Who the hell do you think introduced sectarianism to the North of Ireland. You really don't know your own history. Look up the Ulster plantation. Do you honestly think Irish people split between Catholic and Protestant? The protestants were by and large Scottish and English colonists planted in Ireland in order to pacify the country. They were and are foreigners designed to suppress the native population. Ireland was dominated and ruled by a minority of outsiders the British, for centuries. After a rebellion part of it gained a sort of independence. Meanwhile in Northern Ireland the last refuge of the colonists who believe themselves 'under siege' surrounded by the 'mere natives'.
The English did that.
Meanwhile in rest of the empire Britain exploited the differences the tribalism and religious differences. If you want one example look at Pakistan and India. That's the legacy of the empire.

The English were not the positive influence in the world they like to believe.

The remarkable ignorance shown here really puts some perspective on the motivation for Brexit. A fantasy borne out of false history and lies.
I do know my history my friend, I am well aware of the shortcomings of the past against current social mores. I feel no guilt over this nation's actions in the past. Indeed if the British should have to feel that guilt it should be centuries before Germany should be allowed re-entry to the human race.

I guess you're from the island of Ireland? Looked at your own family history? Were they all honest, decent people? Any Scottish or English blood perhaps?

Try to be honest with yourself.

Last edited by Harley Quinn; 9th May 2019 at 22:57.
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old 10th May 2019, 18:01
  #651 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: West Country
Posts: 10
Steepclimb wrote: Absolute nonsense. Take responsibility for your nation's responsibility.

My nation's responsibility for over population? What do you mean?
Blossy is offline  
Old 10th May 2019, 18:48
  #652 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wilts
Posts: 127
I believe that Theresa May had the forethought to see that England would control both the European Cup and the other cup at the same time. COME AND GET. IT.����������
DON T is offline  
Old 10th May 2019, 20:13
  #653 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 6,312
Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
I do know my history my friend, I am well aware of the shortcomings of the past against current social mores. I feel no guilt over this nation's actions in the past. Indeed if the British should have to feel that guilt it should be centuries before Germany should be allowed re-entry to the human race.

I guess you're from the island of Ireland? Looked at your own family history? Were they all honest, decent people? Any Scottish or English blood perhaps?

Try to be honest with yourself.
Population of Island of Ireland in 1841 was 8 million, Great Britain it was 16 million, population of Ireland may get back to 8 million by 2050.

Potato famine was no worse than other famines in Ireland BUT on previous occasion a ban on Food exports ensured people were fed, in 1840's London ensure no such ban was in place and actively prevented it occurring while millions starved to death.

25% minimum of the population of Ireland died during the famine.
racedo is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2019, 14:56
  #654 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,253
The Japanese have warned that leaving without a deal will risk the Japanese stopping all UK investment and relocating, PSA have said that they will only allocate the next Astra model production to Ellesmere Port if there is a deal, Ford are threatening to move Diesel production from Dagenham to the continent in the event of a no deal and have already announced the closure of the engine plant at Bridgend, British Steel in administration and 5,000 direct and 10,000 related jobs at severe risk and a key strategic industry under threat of extinction mainly because EU based customers stopped ordering because of the threat of tariffs in the event of no deal, Airbus halting UK investment and having some wing functions open in Spain, UK blue passports now to be made in Poland by a Franco company and 170 jobs going when the Gateshead factory where the EU passports are made closes, billions of capital leaving London for overseas, assets relocated and funds moved.

So when will Johnson stop his ridiculous "out by 31st October do or die" mantra?

And all this without even mentioning the disastrous effect that a WTO no deal exit will have on our agricultural industry when instant tariffs of over 40% are placed on the majority of their exports?

He does, UK business dies...
pr00ne is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2019, 15:03
  #655 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: God's Country
Posts: 115
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
The Japanese have warned that leaving without a deal will risk the Japanese stopping all UK investment and relocating, PSA have said that they will only allocate the next Astra model production to Ellesmere Port if there is a deal, Ford are threatening to move Diesel production from Dagenham to the continent in the event of a no deal and have already announced the closure of the engine plant at Bridgend, British Steel in administration and 5,000 direct and 10,000 related jobs at severe risk and a key strategic industry under threat of extinction mainly because EU based customers stopped ordering because of the threat of tariffs in the event of no deal, Airbus halting UK investment and having some wing functions open in Spain, UK blue passports now to be made in Poland by a Franco company and 170 jobs going when the Gateshead factory where the EU passports are made closes, billions of capital leaving London for overseas, assets relocated and funds moved.

So when will Johnson stop his ridiculous "out by 31st October do or die" mantra?

And all this without even mentioning the disastrous effect that a WTO no deal exit will have on our agricultural industry when instant tariffs of over 40% are placed on the majority of their exports?

He does, UK business dies...
You are selective with some of your stats.

Best give full story: Number of projects down. But overall capital investment up 500m. Venture capital doubled. Forward commitments weak (Brexit effect?). For context: German FDI down 13%.

Not quite the doom and gloom that you wish to spout.

The Nip is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2019, 15:10
  #656 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,253
The Nip,

I'm selective because they are the relevant facts. I do not claim that ALL inward investment has stopped, and there are a lot of EU companies investing in expanded facilities and new factories, but they are peanuts and chickenfeed when compared to the huge companies and plants under threat. Investment IS down with the last figures showing a 14% reduction and the number of jobs created has fallen too, and it IS doom and gloom when you consider the major manufacturers planning to relocate in the event of a no deal, and it is not me spouting it, it is the companies themselves and their Government and trade association representatives. Go and read what the Japanese Foreign Minister said today.
pr00ne is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2019, 15:31
  #657 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 909
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
So when will Johnson stop his ridiculous "out by 31st October do or die" mantra?
The trouble is that the present deadlock, the endless kicking the can down the road, the repeated failure to get our elected representatives to reach a majority verdict on any of the potential options is barely any better.

For better or worse, BoJo has said that he will break us out of the current paralysis. Whether he is able to do so, or not, is another matter, but I think we're at the point where a different approach is needed..
Andy_S is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2019, 15:38
  #658 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: God's Country
Posts: 115
The
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
The Nip,

I'm selective because they are the relevant facts. I do not claim that ALL inward investment has stopped, and there are a lot of EU companies investing in expanded facilities and new factories, but they are peanuts and chickenfeed when compared to the huge companies and plants under threat. Investment IS down with the last figures showing a 14% reduction and the number of jobs created has fallen too, and it IS doom and gloom when you consider the major manufacturers planning to relocate in the event of a no deal, and it is not me spouting it, it is the companies themselves and their Government and trade association representatives. Go and read what the Japanese Foreign Minister said today.
Capital investment is UP 500M. investment in the UK was more than Ger and Fra combined. Fact.
Jobs are up. Employment down. Fact.

You can look at Ed Conway Sky for the type of figures you might like to see. But within his tweets he is shown to be selecting the figures that those who voted remain want to see.

He obtains his figures from @tradegovuk.

The FT ran figures yesterday spelling out the number of projects was down but capital was up.


The Nip is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2019, 15:47
  #659 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,253
The Nip,

Yes I agree, the headline "Sharp fall in foreign investment in UK" is misleading and does, on closer examination, refer to a reduction in the number of projects by 14% and number of jobs created down to 57, 525 from 75,968 in the previous year. So you are right to call me out on that.

None of this however should detract from the looming disaster that a no deal exit on WTO rules would bring to the UK economy. Which is why we should start calling out Johnson on his Do or Die nonsense as far as leaving by 31st October. Why should we allow dogma to destroy so many jobs and livelihoods?
pr00ne is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2019, 16:01
  #660 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: God's Country
Posts: 115
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
The Nip,

Yes I agree, the headline "Sharp fall in foreign investment in UK" is misleading and does, on closer examination, refer to a reduction in the number of projects by 14% and number of jobs created down to 57, 525 from 75,968 in the previous year. So you are right to call me out on that.

None of this however should detract from the looming disaster that a no deal exit on WTO rules would bring to the UK economy. Which is why we should start calling out Johnson on his Do or Die nonsense as far as leaving by 31st October. Why should we allow dogma to destroy so many jobs and livelihoods?
Please don't think I am just being picky. It is just that there are many journalists who are deliberately taking official figures and twisting them to present that BREXIT is destroying every type of business in the UK.

The official figures show a mixture of good and bad. But it also shows that despite the mess that has been the last 3 years, the UK is doing better than can be expected, and better than other EU countries. The figure of -13% FDI for Ger shows there are problems throughout the EU.

A Neil is very good at putting these journalists in their place when they deliberately twist facts. He will also do the same for those who twist facts in favour of BREXIT. So in essence he is neutral and you get the truth.
The Nip is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.