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BREXIT

Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:22
  #6321 (permalink)  
 
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What is/are the point of the current polls - surely, we are already out?
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:29
  #6322 (permalink)  
 
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I presume to monitor continuing feeling as regards how the project is panning out and also to gauge the sentiment towards rejoin, which incidentally now seems to be a growing prospect. The 38% which is the top end of Leave seems to coincide with both Tory opinion poll support and those who feel Pfeffel is doing a good job on Covid - The same cohort?

You could make the same argument for party polling, surely we have had an election why do we need polls. All political parties poll all the time on many subjects to see the lie of the land. I dread to think what Tory Central office makes of some of them, particularly on the role of Cummings.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:30
  #6323 (permalink)  
 
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Doesn't matter what the polls are. There's no chance of a referendum or public persuasion to review the situation.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:39
  #6324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post

There will be challenges, but not as severe as some predict, or indeed hope for.
I don't want it to be severe but how is, for example, haulage going to work with no deal?
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:47
  #6325 (permalink)  
 
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Whether it is severe or not isn't going to be influenced by our individual desires one way or the other. Personally I am hoping that it will be severe simply to demonstrate the folly of the decision and to put those who pushed for it out on a limb, hopefully sidelining them from any significant contribution to British politics for the next couple of decades at least. To quote some Tory from the dim and distant past it will be a price worth paying.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:52
  #6326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Null Orifice View Post
What is/are the point of the current polls - surely, we are already out?
The point is to monitor public feeling about a process of huge significance for the UK. If a large section of the British electorate and others are disquieted or against this momentous change, it matters. The Tories are on a trajectory to send themselves into Opposition for a generation for mismanaging the country’s interests whilst waving the flag on a wobbly box. Five years on there won’t be many souls who’ll be buying the empty rhetoric when they find the county poorer, less important and struggling to define itself internally and externally.

Of note was the reaction of the business leaders‘ meeting with Blowjo and Cummings yesterday - they felt patronized and that these boneheads are not in the real world. That doesn’t bode well at all. Public opinion matters, but trade really matters.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:56
  #6327 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
And, on cue, Barnier pops up in the EU parliament this morning stating that progress is possible "if both sides are willing to work constructively, if both sides are willing to compromise".....


https://youtu.be/0p-CGbCZD54
And your point is?

He says both sides, did you understand the EU?
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 12:07
  #6328 (permalink)  
 
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The UK is divided as to whether we should leave the UK or not
Very possibly correct but not really germane to a discussion on Brexit.!
It is, of course, possible that that statement is indicative of the quality of thought which preceded application of fingers to keyboard, and the subsequent attention to detail in proof-reading the contents!
Why am I not surprised?
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 12:14
  #6329 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Personally I am just not sure. The EU hold all the cards and Boris is backed into a corner, under attack on all fronts, it really is his Stalingrad. So why would they want to help him out? It makes far more sense for them now to sit back and wait for him to run up the white flag.
Like Hitler, he is fighting a war, economic in his case, on two fronts, Brexit & Covid and needs to do a deal with one of the belligerent parties, but it isn't going to be Covid any time soon.

In September Boris said
I'd rather be dead in ditch than agree Brexit extension
and he may just get his wish anyway, without a deal.

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Old 21st Oct 2020, 12:25
  #6330 (permalink)  
 
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England Will Prevail

Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
I believe that the UK is well able to fend for itself in the big wide world without the EU, that belief springs from the fact that I spent quite some time working in Europe and was often very unimpressed, particularly in Germany where many of the hotels are unable to make toast properly.
Levity or not, your jingoism causes you to mistake genuine concern at what Brexit may mean for schadenfreude.

I found an old video of Nigel Farage and Michel Barnier in closed doors negotiations.

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Old 21st Oct 2020, 12:36
  #6331 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
The point is to monitor public feeling about a process of huge significance for the UK. If a large section of the British electorate and others are disquieted or against this momentous change, it matters. The Tories are on a trajectory to send themselves into Opposition for a generation for mismanaging the country’s interests whilst waving the flag on a wobbly box. Five years on there won’t be many souls who’ll be buying the empty rhetoric when they find the county poorer, less important and struggling to define itself internally and externally.

Of note was the reaction of the business leaders‘ meeting with Blowjo and Cummings yesterday - they felt patronized and that these boneheads are not in the real world. That doesn’t bode well at all. Public opinion matters, but trade really matters.
Worth noting that Europe is too aware of the polls.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 13:23
  #6332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
Apologies for levity. The UK is divided as to whether we should leave the UK or not, unfortunately it is not an equal division and more people wish to leave than to stay, my point is that it is curious that those who wish to remain in the EU can't accept that we have left and, in the main, wish us to have a bad deal. What is strange is that they have stronger feelings for the rights of the EU than they do for the rights of the UK.

There will be challenges, but not as severe as some predict, or indeed hope for.
Do you mean the UK to leave the EU
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 13:44
  #6333 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Son et Lumiere....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-claim-he-won

The EU Has a Plan to Get a Brexit Deal: Let Johnson Claim He Won

Deep in the European Commission’s Brussels headquarters, officials are plotting how to make it look like Boris Johnson is a brilliant negotiator.

With talks between the U.K. and European Union still deadlocked after the British prime minister nearly-but-didn’t-quite stage a walkout Friday, that’s the only way EU officials say they can secure the trade deal both sides say they want.....

But EU officials, and senior diplomats from Europe’s biggest capitals, say they are relaxed about the U.K.’s posturing, which they say they recognize is necessary for Johnson to be able to sell a compromise to euro-skeptics at home. One official described the current standoff as theatrics. Another called Friday’s statement an expected and artificial provocation.

Despite a second call between the chief negotiators Tuesday ending in a
stalemate, EU officials expect formal discussions to resume in coming days before then entering the intense period of legal drafting known as the “tunnel.” They still expect a deal to be struck in mid-November......

...
those planning the EU’s strategy, including the teams working for European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and chief negotiator Michel Barnier, are trying to work out how to make it look like they are backing down to give Johnson his victory.

According to people familiar with their thinking, that could mean going out of their way to reassert that the U.K. is a sovereign equal to the EU; sending British negotiators a draft legal text to show they are serious about getting an agreement; or agreeing to compromise on the thorny topic of state aid, something they have so far been unwilling to do.....

Besides, the EU’s refusal to engage with the U.K. on some of the biggest topics of disagreement as time ticked toward Johnson’s Oct. 15 deadline was just as much of a negotiating tactic as the U.K. bringing a halt to proceedings, people close to the talks acknowledge. But officials say at some point the posturing will stop and the real work will resume as the two sides try to bridge their divisions.

The EU will try to help Johnson, one senior diplomat said. The bloc cares less about being seen to win, he said, than it does about getting a deal.
One hopes that the whole basis of this article is erroneous.
A fundamental factor behind these negotiations is that the UK must appear to get a poor deal, simply to ensure solidarity within the remaining EU. This should be clear to negotiators on both sides.
Given this situation any kudos provided to Boris ought to be completely irrelevant.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 14:00
  #6334 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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And your point is? He says both sides, did you understand the EU?
The
point is that it is a reversal of the statement made at the end of the summit, which laid down that no deal was possible unless the UK accepted the EU policies on both fisheries and the level playing field. Unless, of course, their idea of a compromise is that they listen until the UK agrees to their mandate....

In statement on Thursday, the EU Council President Charles Michel said it was up to the UK to "make the necessary moves" to make an agreement possible.”

"Any agreement on our future relationship would have to be based on our mandate, in particular when it comes to the level playing field, fisheries and governance.”.


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Old 21st Oct 2020, 16:33
  #6335 (permalink)  
 
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Of note was the reaction of the business leaders‘ meeting with Blowjo and Cummings yesterday - they felt patronized and that these boneheads are not in the real world. That doesn’t bode well at all. Public opinion matters, but trade really matters.[/QUOTE]

Tourquetalk
Apparently that was a very interesting meeting, as one individual present was subsequently some what blunt about further contributory funds for Tory Central office, some what along the lines used by Bojo re business a few months back. Tory funds maybe in shorter supply going forwards. What this country really needs is a central middle of the road party, not funded by Billionaires / Russia or Trades Unions. Perhaps formed from people who have actually run businesses or have experience of the world outside Govt.
Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 16:46
  #6336 (permalink)  
 
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What this country really needs is a central middle of the road party, not funded by Billionaires / Russia or Trades Unions. Perhaps formed from people who have actually run businesses or have experience of the world outside Govt.
Richard Tice has created one.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 17:17
  #6337 (permalink)  
 
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I'd rather be dead in ditch than agree Brexit extension
In September Boris said and he may just get his wish anyway, without a deal.
I suspect Johnson is politically dead and has been some time, the Tories will dispose of him at the right time and I don't expect he'll put up a fight.

He has thus far I think by any metric been an appalling PM - one that has likely done untold damage to the Tory brand.

I grew up under Thatcher... nasty yes, but not nasty and incompetent.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 17:49
  #6338 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
Richard Tice has created one.
It's not a party, but a limited company trading under the name of a party. It has no members either.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 20:40
  #6339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Big_D View Post
It's not a party, but a limited company trading under the name of a party. It has no members either.
Tice....but dim.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 20:44
  #6340 (permalink)  
 
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Richard but also known for short as...
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