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BREXIT

Old 29th Sep 2020, 11:58
  #5921 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
That sounds interesting. What will change to stop them next year?
Probably having recruited 50,000 new customs officers from overseas.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 12:11
  #5922 (permalink)  
 
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What will change to stop them next year?
Very good question with no easy answer, in fact Brexit may even make it more difficult to send uninvited visitors back to France, current UN maritime laws prevent those in dinghies being turned away. The only thing that I assume the Government can do post brexit is create a situation where people no longer wish to come to the UK, possibly not putting them in four star hotels might be a start.
I suppose that after next year the ECHR no longer applies to those people in the UK and if the Government choses to simply put in prison those who have entered the country ilegally there won't be any external law that can prevent that.. Ms Patel has vowed to address this, lets see what she does.

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Old 29th Sep 2020, 12:32
  #5923 (permalink)  
 
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Sallyann1234
I would be interested to hear that answer as well , maybe Boris on the beach saying you will not pass with the rest of the ERG group ? Maybe start sinking some boats because that will probably be what it takes though winter is coming so that may reduce the flow by boat, but there will be all those delayed trucks to hide on board then in Jan onwards.
Arthur Bellcrank
As for GB being an innovative country I am not sure I would, or could except that without knowing who we are comparing GB with.
As for my view on Brexit I am a well known Remainer on this forum. I have, and indeed do work, and indeed live part time in Germany. However I also work in Mid / Far East, Africa, and Indian sub continent, with a little in South America / North America and I have lived for a period in most of those areas. My view on Europe probably comes through my Father who spent his early life bombing it, and then being a POW in it, and his feelings at the end were that he did not want any generation to go through that again, and he believed as do I that by working in various countries and getting an understanding about their people and culture, the world gets just a little closer and we would therefore all get along a little better on this planet that we all call home. It is a simple belief, indeed when working in India and asked about religion (you always are in India at some stage) I sited that as my belief, to be told by a Hindu priest that it was an excellent religion / belief and should have a deity ! I was born anglo Swiss through accident of location (Zurich Airport) and are therefore a dual national, and spent my early youth living in Chile (Santiago) but was educated at boarding school in the UK, and also did a short spell in BAOR on an SSC before going into the Commercial world via Uni. I have given you some background so that you may better understand why I am so passionate about being part of a bigger thing than the just the UK, and indeed it maybe because I have been fortunate to experience so much of the world that makes me so passionate about it, and indeed disappointed in the Brexit vote outcome.

Avionker
Totally share your reasoning and understanding.

Kind regards
Mr Mac
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 12:51
  #5924 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Mac,

Being British and having been born in Malaya of a Far East family, I agree with your point of view. For most of my working life I lived in England and, after retiring from flying, went to work in Brussels for IATA in a totally international environment. I now live in the south of France and observe my country from afar.

My father was a POW after the fall of Singapore, my grandfather and his brother were killed in Ypres in 1915. We must not let these things happen again. We need to understand far more about other peoples - their cultures, values, religions and be far more tolerant. That is why I believeso strongly in European integration and, like you, believe passionately in European unity.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 13:08
  #5925 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
Very good question with no easy answer, in fact Brexit may even make it more difficult to send uninvited visitors back to France, current UN maritime laws prevent those in dinghies being turned away. The only thing that I assume the Government can do post brexit is create a situation where people no longer wish to come to the UK, possibly not putting them in four star hotels might be a start.
I suppose that after next year the ECHR no longer applies to those people in the UK and if the Government choses to simply put in prison those who have entered the country ilegally there won't be any external law that can prevent that.. Ms Patel has vowed to address this, lets see what she does.
Oh dear, you’re in for a disappointment then. I suspect that we’ll remain in the UN, and the EHCR has nothing to do with the EU, so we’ll remain signatories to that too. Finding out that Patel is just full of rabble rousing hot air won’t help either!
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 13:37
  #5926 (permalink)  
 
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I've worked with many Europeans too, and most of them a very nice people - much like ourselves in many ways (!) and while in my experinces they are mainly pro-European, they are also proud of their own nations.

I don't think the Leave/Remain is a split between Smart/Thick, Emotion/Intellect, Intelligent/Uneducated but more a product of peoples experiences. The majority of people aren't as swayed by the media/press as we like to think, but can see what is going on around them.

If you've had the opportunity to work abroad you probably will be pro-EU, but if you're experience of freedom of movement is a suppresion of opportunity and a lowering of wages, conditions, etc. you're probably not.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 14:37
  #5927 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post

If you've had the opportunity to work abroad you probably will be pro-EU, but if you're experience of freedom of movement is a suppresion of opportunity and a lowering of wages, conditions, etc. you're probably not.
Totally agree, most of my friends and family with similar experiences voted remain. However, there was one close friend who surprisingly voted to leave. The reason being she absolutely could not stand Michel Barnier, won't watch him or listen to him on TV, Radio etc. That was her only reason. Go figure.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 15:45
  #5928 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
I suppose that after next year the ECHR no longer applies to those people in the UK and if the Government choses to simply put in prison those who have entered the country ilegally there won't be any external law that can prevent that..
To be more precise, there will no longer be any law or treaty obligation that stops us withdrawing from the convention. It is, however, doubtful that the convention will be removed from domestic law. Mrs May discovered there wasn't the support for doing so.

Remind me, which part of the ECHR do those crossing from France rely on?
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 16:26
  #5929 (permalink)  
 
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I do wish some people who post on here would take the trouble to understand the differences between the European Union, the European Court of Justice and the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). This latter organisation came into force in 1953 and is NOT a body of the EU. It was negotiated and set up largely at the instigation of the UK and very much inspired by Winston Churchill and like-minded people who wanted never to see the atrocities committed by the Nazis to ever happen again.

If you place any value on human decency and the rule of law you would support the ECHR.

Leaving the EU will not mean that the UK withdraws from the ECHR. The two treaties are totally different.


https://eachother.org.uk/wrote-europ...0law.%E2%80%9D
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 16:35
  #5930 (permalink)  
 
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Sallyann,
How many Boris s are there? If we could assemble lots of them, and give them guns, and make them stay on the beaches....................

And it would stop them pretending to be the Government.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 16:40
  #5931 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
It would be interesting to know the thinking of those who still prefer Leave. I can easily understand how they got to 52% but I can also see how the roughly 15% swing in the other direction in the last four years has come about. So my question to those who still prefer Leave is this : Do you now accept that you chose the worse option taking into regard the generally poorer economic outcome of your choice? And secondly, if you do, what in your opinion is the main advantage(s) of that choice?

I ask this because, try as I might, I really cannot see any advantage now, apart from possibly if you are a currency speculator or hedge fund manager intending to use the impending chaos to make money.
What a fantastically open and non-biaised couple of questions, I'll do my best to answer them as honestly as possible.

Q.1. No, not at all, partly because I've not witnessed the post-Brexit economic meltdown. And partly because economics was never at the forefront of my mind when deciding to vote Leave. Never regretted my leave vote for one second, thank you very much 😊

Q.2. Well I dont accept that I chose the worst option, blah, blah. But if what you really meant was for me to explain why I still believe I was right to vote leave then here goes:
1. UK is vastly overpopulated, to completely unsustainable levels, and the crazies in control want to (further) bulldoze planning regs in order we can build 300k extra homes per annum. A better answer would be to manage the population size more effectively, so we all have space to live and breathe. I saw Brexit as one potential option to give us more control over who is allowed to settle here.
2. The EU end state is predicated on ever closer financial and political integration, we never sat well with that, always on the outside looking in. Why not just face it, we're different, and let them crack on?
3. EU membership is a core tenet of the establishment status quo, lots of cosy jobs for the boys, backroom deals, etc. Basically the elite getting more elite whilst keeping the masses on a dripfeed diet of BS. I just thought it was high time for a shake-up, give the establishment something to think about, break up a few cosy norms.

As I said no regrets whatsoever.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 16:52
  #5932 (permalink)  
 
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+1 for andrewn
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 17:10
  #5933 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
Which do you think supports Brexit?
Intelligence;
The ability to see through politician's lies and sloganeering.
To look at the broader implications of a subject.
To understand that leaving one of the largest economic blocs and competing against it and other major players will have serious consequences for the UK economy.
An appreciation of the free flow of trade and movement with our closest neighbours.
Etc.
Emotion;
" I like that nice Mr Farage 'e drinks beer an' that. Keep them foreigners out I says."
A classic case on Newsnight after the referendum result was announced. Interviewer to gezzer outside a cafe in Essex.
"Did you vote leave?"
"Yes."
"Were you surprised by the result?"
"Yes."
"Any second thoughts?"
"I should have thought about it more."
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 17:16
  #5934 (permalink)  
 
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Having lived and worked in Brussels, I could understand their desire for permanent peace.


Having lived and worked in Brussels, I could see how nasty and corrupt EU politics, voting and etc were. If you think Boris is bad, or that Corbyn might have been bad, go and live in Bru. Even Brit mandarins have their noses firmly in the trough. (Ask a Mandarin about the Expenses arrangements for their trips to all the Euro cttees) But the Brits are mere amateurs.

I should have voted leave, but swallowed the "Stay" campaign...................and everyone I know voted remain.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 17:17
  #5935 (permalink)  
 
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Andrewn, Were you describing the EU or the present government?
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 17:25
  #5936 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bergerie1 View Post
If you place any value on human decency and the rule of law you would support the ECHR.
+1 from me
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 17:33
  #5937 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
Andrewn, Were you describing the EU or the present government?
if you mean the "crazies in control" I refer to our current, and multiple previous Govts, all of whom have been or are singularly focussed on driving up GDP growth, on the basis it will keep them in power for longer. The reality is the world has moved on, for highly developed nations like UK. What we need is a sustainable steady state economy
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 17:49
  #5938 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
Intelligence;
The ability to see through politician's lies and sloganeering.
To look at the broader implications of a subject.
To understand that leaving one of the largest economic blocs and competing against it and other major players will have serious consequences for the UK economy.
An appreciation of the free flow of trade and movement with our closest neighbours.
Etc.
Emotion;
" I like that nice Mr Farage 'e drinks beer an' that. Keep them foreigners out I says."
A classic case on Newsnight after the referendum result was announced. Interviewer to gezzer outside a cafe in Essex.
"Did you vote leave?"
"Yes."
"Were you surprised by the result?"
"Yes."
"Any second thoughts?"
"I should have thought about it more."
the sort of lazy, arrogant, patronizing attitude which contributed to us being out.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 17:55
  #5939 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
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Originally Posted by hiflymk3 View Post
Intelligence;
The ability to see through politician's lies and sloganeering.
To look at the broader implications of a subject.
To understand that leaving one of the largest economic blocs and competing against it and other major players will have serious consequences for the UK economy.
An appreciation of the free flow of trade and movement with our closest neighbours.
Etc.
Emotion;
" I like that nice Mr Farage 'e drinks beer an' that. Keep them foreigners out I says."
A classic case on Newsnight after the referendum result was announced. Interviewer to gezzer outside a cafe in Essex.
"Did you vote leave?"
"Yes."
"Were you surprised by the result?"
"Yes."
"Any second thoughts?"
"I should have thought about it more."
Small point of order here please. Your first line should have also included, well ok, it could be a line in itself, " an insidious campaign of disinformation and fallacies actively published by certain right wing media tabloids ".....thank you.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 22:14
  #5940 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Small point of order here please. Your first line should have also included, well ok, it could be a line in itself, " an insidious campaign of disinformation and fallacies actively published by certain right wing media tabloids ".....thank you.
KnC +1 from me. Well said
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