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BREXIT

Old 16th Feb 2020, 13:52
  #4701 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post
I still fail to read a single reference to "Friends of corruption".
I suggest you pay a visit to any one of the Mediterranean islands and you will find money laundering operations in plain sight. For example, take a drive out of Heraklion in Crete in the middle of summer and you will find a large new premises with an empty car park every few km. They all sell the same product, fur coats.

Rather odd don't you think ?
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 13:58
  #4702 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
I suggest you pay a visit to any one of the Mediterranean islands and you will find money laundering operations in plain sight. For example, take a drive out of Heraklion in Crete in the middle of summer and you will find a large new premises with an empty car park every few km. They all sell the same product, fur coats.

Rather odd don't you think ?
Which is totally different from what goes on in a British territory such as the Cayman Islands, right? I guess why the EU blacklisted them as soon as your country left...they tried before, but the UK vetoed the proposal...

Anyway, I still fail to find that any EU official said what "reported" by The Laughable.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 15:34
  #4703 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
Why do many here insist that leaving the EU was primarily about economic and fiscal matters ? Important ? Certainly, but not set against the prime benefit; the top prize of running our country ourselves, without the necessity of gaining or being in receipt of permissions from the EU.

During the late 60s, De Gaulle was under no illusions about GBs prospective membership. He then ran the nascent EU. De Gaulle knew that given GBs history of involvement with Europe and its role as guarantor of liberty and freedom the GB could not be a 'rule taker' or subscriber to any foreign culture and values that overrode the British systems. Edward Heath thought he knew better and proceeded to impose uncritical acceptance upon Britain in the knowledge that the end result would not be solely an economic union but a political one. If ever there was a politician - and there have been a few - who so drastically and dramatically misread the situation, it was Heath.

Fifty years have gone by. Fifty years of desperate political manoeuvring in attempting to fit square pegs into round holes. Fifty years of stemming the advance of a continental Napoleonic judicial system at complete odds with our own long developed Common Law. Fifty years of a Franco/German economic and political axis determined to maintain its hegemony at the expense of the British.

How could we have been such complete fools as to ignore the words of the Founding Father of the EU: Jean Monnett.
Or, to summarise. The British, whether this be in the far flung corners of the (in)glorious Empire, or in mainland Europe, have always felt it's our divine right to be in charge and control. Strange thought it may seem, not every nation is inclined to agree with this trait.

Thankfully, we no longer have to worry about being part of a progressive and developing bloc and can now concentrate our efforts on controlling the domestic population of the UK...an area we've always had some expertise in, in fact, we exported repression to help subjugate anywhere across the globe we fancied acquiring.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 15:44
  #4704 (permalink)  
 
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Krystal

I couldn't have put it better myself. It's good to see that you agree ! Mind you, I tend to blame the Normans.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 15:49
  #4705 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
Why do many here insist that leaving the EU was primarily about economic and fiscal matters ? Important ? Certainly, but not set against the prime benefit; the top prize of running our country ourselves, without the necessity of gaining or being in receipt of permissions from the EU.

During the late 60s, De Gaulle was under no illusions about GBs prospective membership. He then ran the nascent EU. De Gaulle knew that given GBs history of involvement with Europe and its role as guarantor of liberty and freedom the GB could not be a 'rule taker' or subscriber to any foreign culture and values that overrode the British systems. Edward Heath thought he knew better and proceeded to impose uncritical acceptance upon Britain in the knowledge that the end result would not be solely an economic union but a political one. If ever there was a politician - and there have been a few - who so drastically and dramatically misread the situation, it was Heath.

Fifty years have gone by. Fifty years of desperate political manoeuvring in attempting to fit square pegs into round holes. Fifty years of stemming the advance of a continental Napoleonic judicial system at complete odds with our own long developed Common Law. Fifty years of a Franco/German economic and political axis determined to maintain its hegemony at the expense of the British.

How could we have been such complete fools as to ignore the words of the Founding Father of the EU: Jean Monnett.
I wish I had written this.

I imagine, amongst the plethora of guff spouted by this fellow, you mean:

Jean Monnet > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

We have woken up just in time. The vile Heath (and subsequently Wilson) were well aware of this - after all, much the same thing is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome but the hoodwink is over. We can now embrace a bright future, if the fifth columnists will let us!

Apologies for the shouting - been unable to shrink the cut/paste thingy.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 15:50
  #4706 (permalink)  
 
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Mind you, I tend to blame the Normans
Were you referring to Norman WISDOM? (!) Or have they left us to inherit cultural and political Norms?

(Or do we need to look closer to home at the Nigels?)
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 15:57
  #4707 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
Krystal

I couldn't have put it better myself. It's good to see that you agree ! Mind you, I tend to blame the Normans.
Very droll, however, as we are diametrically opposite , unlikely . Presumably you still celebrate Empire Day ?
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 18:37
  #4708 (permalink)  
 
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I think what Capt Kremmen is saying is that if any politicians are going govern the UK, it would be best if they were ours - not some unelected Euro-minnows.
Can't believe we're still having to explain this to the hard-of-thinking Guardian readers here but this principle lies at the heart of why so many voted to leave.
I'll say it once more: we're not xenophobic, racist, pining for Empire, or a return to 1950s Britain, or looking to engage in a race to the bottom or any other mindless nonsense. We simply believe that we and we alone should govern our own country.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 18:52
  #4709 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sidevalve View Post
I think what Capt Kremmen is saying is that if any politicians are going govern the UK, it would be best if they were ours - not some unelected Euro-minnows.
Can't believe we're still having to explain this to the hard-of-thinking Guardian readers here but this principle lies at the heart of why so many voted to leave.
I'll say it once more: we're not xenophobic, racist, pining for Empire, or a return to 1950s Britain, or looking to engage in a race to the bottom or any other mindless nonsense. We simply believe that we and we alone should govern our own country.
Generous of you to help interpret Capt Kremmen‘s posts there sidevalve, although he seems quite capable of expressing himself without your help.

But why stop there when you can deem yourself the “we“ in the Brexit vote and clarify for remainers the one and true reason for the Brexit vote.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 21:00
  #4710 (permalink)  
 
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RTÉ’s interesting podcast on all things Brexit related (yes we still use the term here), looking at the UK cabinet reshuffle, rolling back by the UK on its Withdrawal Agreement obligations, the challenges around Northern Irelands new status in both the EU and UK and a look at the Irish election.

Top marks to the editor who named the latest episode. About 40 minutes long.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/...-be-on-me-way/

JAS
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 11:26
  #4711 (permalink)  
 
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As per the withdrawal agreement, which I have to admit that I haven't studied, Northern Ireland is to remain part of the common market. I came to think of a couple of possible consequences arising from this:

1. Will this mean that any future UK law or regulation that contradicts EU rules will need a clause stating it does not apply to NI ?

Let's say the UK allowed production and sales of chlorinated chicken. Say this happens through issuing completely new regulations on the production and sales of food, cancelling any such previous. It would have a clause stating not applying to NI, which would leave NI without any regulation in the area.

Otherwise, applicable law and regulations will need a separate section for NI which will just be a copy of EU regulations (which are currently incorporated into UK law). Also, does any new regulation passed by the EU need to be incorporated into UK law, applicable to NI only ?

2. Any UK company wishing to remain in, and enjoy the benefits of the common market could conveniently re-locate to NI ?
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 11:31
  #4712 (permalink)  
 
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Why not just move to the Republic and be done with it?
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 11:56
  #4713 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Why not just move to the Republic and be done with it?
This would provide a convenient outcome and, I suspect, eventually will happen. But in the meantime, any move of this sort would be to deny the people of Northern Ireland their birthright and trivialise/negate the actions and sacrifices made by them and others in securing the continuation of their British heritage.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 19:14
  #4714 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen View Post
Why do many here insist that leaving the EU was primarily about economic and fiscal matters ? Important ? Certainly, but not set against the prime benefit; the top prize of running our country ourselves, without the necessity of gaining or being in receipt of permissions from the EU.

During the late 60s, De Gaulle was under no illusions about GBs prospective membership. He then ran the nascent EU. De Gaulle knew that given GBs history of involvement with Europe and its role as guarantor of liberty and freedom the GB could not be a 'rule taker' or subscriber to any foreign culture and values that overrode the British systems. Edward Heath thought he knew better and proceeded to impose uncritical acceptance upon Britain in the knowledge that the end result would not be solely an economic union but a political one. If ever there was a politician - and there have been a few - who so drastically and dramatically misread the situation, it was Heath.

Fifty years have gone by. Fifty years of desperate political manoeuvring in attempting to fit square pegs into round holes. Fifty years of stemming the advance of a continental Napoleonic judicial system at complete odds with our own long developed Common Law. Fifty years of a Franco/German economic and political axis determined to maintain its hegemony at the expense of the British.

How could we have been such complete fools as to ignore the words of the Founding Father of the EU: Jean Monnett.
The truth is you have given the UK away to be run by a nutter that looks like Gollum. UK save Europe? The Americans did that in the 20th Century, Twice, three times if you take in the cold war. I have just read a heavily distorted nationalistic rant to be honest. Our political system in this country is bent anyway. Always has been.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 20:58
  #4715 (permalink)  
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https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-b...ting-eu-rules/

UK Brexit negotiator: We’re not bluffing on not accepting EU rules

The U.K.'s rejection of demands that it stay aligned with EU rules post Brexit is not a "negotiating position which might move under pressure," but central to the government's vision for the country beyond 2020, according to Britain’s chief negotiator David Frost.

In a rare speech in Brussels before the second phase of Brexit talks get underway next month, Frost will give a robust response to the EU's red line on maintaining a so-called level playing field — the demand that London stays aligned to EU rules on environmental and labor protection, for example.

Laying out the EU's position earlier this month, chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said that Brussels is willing to do a deal that includes zero-tariff and zero-quota access to the EU's single market, but that it would come with conditions. "We need to make sure competition is and remains open and fair," Barnier said. In remarks briefed to journalists ahead of his lecture at the Université Libre de Bruxelles on Monday evening, Frost says staying aligned with EU rules would defeat the point of Brexit.

“We bring to the negotiations not some clever tactical positioning but the fundamentals of what it means to be an independent country. It is central to our vision that we must have the ability to set laws that suit us — to claim the right that every other non-EU country in the world has," he says. "So to think that we might accept EU supervision on so-called level playing field issues simply fails to see the point of what we are doing. It isn’t a simple negotiating position which might move under pressure — it is the point of the whole project," he adds, signaling again that the level playing field issue is set to be a major crunch point in the talks.

Frost points out that U.K. standards have in some cases been higher than those required by Brussels. And he points out that London is not demanding that EU countries stay aligned with the U.K. in order to protect British standards. “The more thoughtful would say that such an approach would compromise the EU’s sovereign legal order; that there would be no democratic legitimacy in the EU for the decisions taken in the U.K. to which the EU would be bound.".....

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Old 17th Feb 2020, 21:29
  #4716 (permalink)  
 
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This is warming up to be a really interesting time.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 21:57
  #4717 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sidevalve View Post
. We simply believe that we and we alone should govern our own country.
A laudable sentiment,SV.. I'm sure many Scots, Welsh and Irish folk would agree with you.

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Old 17th Feb 2020, 22:03
  #4718 (permalink)  
 
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I would not accept EU rules. Accept Gollums.. My precious. One Ring to bind them all. Most Brexiteers talk like Smegal.

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Old 18th Feb 2020, 10:18
  #4719 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-b...ting-eu-rules/

UK Brexit negotiator: We’re not bluffing on not accepting EU rules

The U.K.'s rejection of demands that it stay aligned with EU rules post Brexit is not a "negotiating position which might move under pressure," but central to the government's vision for the country beyond 2020, according to Britain’s chief negotiator David Frost.

In a rare speech in Brussels before the second phase of Brexit talks get underway next month, Frost will give a robust response to the EU's red line on maintaining a so-called level playing field — the demand that London stays aligned to EU rules on environmental and labor protection, for example.

Laying out the EU's position earlier this month, chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said that Brussels is willing to do a deal that includes zero-tariff and zero-quota access to the EU's single market, but that it would come with conditions. "We need to make sure competition is and remains open and fair," Barnier said. In remarks briefed to journalists ahead of his lecture at the Université Libre de Bruxelles on Monday evening, Frost says staying aligned with EU rules would defeat the point of Brexit.

“We bring to the negotiations not some clever tactical positioning but the fundamentals of what it means to be an independent country. It is central to our vision that we must have the ability to set laws that suit us — to claim the right that every other non-EU country in the world has," he says. "So to think that we might accept EU supervision on so-called level playing field issues simply fails to see the point of what we are doing. It isn’t a simple negotiating position which might move under pressure — it is the point of the whole project," he adds, signaling again that the level playing field issue is set to be a major crunch point in the talks.

Frost points out that U.K. standards have in some cases been higher than those required by Brussels. And he points out that London is not demanding that EU countries stay aligned with the U.K. in order to protect British standards. “The more thoughtful would say that such an approach would compromise the EU’s sovereign legal order; that there would be no democratic legitimacy in the EU for the decisions taken in the U.K. to which the EU would be bound.".....
The government finds itself on the horns of a dilemma, well probably more than one if truth were known. If they want to keep the hundreds of thousands who voted Conservative in northern and midland constituencies happy, that is employed and enjoying as a minimum the same standards of living they currently have, then they will have to shift a tad on this rather dark red line that was drawn in yesterday's Brussels speech - that is supposing it has been reported accurately in the media. If they do that, then several of the more idealistic Brexiteers in cabinet and the party generally will be up in arms, claiming what is eventually negotiated is tantamount to "Brexit in name only", even though it would be far from it.

If the red lines on EU regs aren't a bit less red, then, as has been said several times over the past 5 years, the midlands and northern manufacturing base including the likes of Nissan,Toyota and Airbus, as well as very likely JLR and BMW may ebb away. Industry simply won't wear the sorts of checks, documentation and costs that the sort of deal that Frost is suggesting will incur for industry. It wouldn't happen overnight but the writing would likely be on the proverbial wall by December 2024.

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Old 18th Feb 2020, 10:24
  #4720 (permalink)  
 
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Nissan's latest thoughts on Brexit, like other Brexit related items from both sides of the debate there are the usual caveats of it might/maybe/could happen, only time will tell what will actually prove correct:

https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/news/ni...ive-advantage/
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