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BREXIT

Old 27th Dec 2019, 23:23
  #4141 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
What on earth is CJ doing making unattributed quotes in support of his own undemocratic views.

Our system has flaws, the value of a vote varies hugely from constituency to constituency. An equable balance would see more Liberal and fewer SNP MPs. It would also see no majority Government and probably a near permanent alignment to Socialism.

Would a one party system, like Russia, be better than a two-party system like the US?
Hi Pontius, I take it you are are either joking, or exaggerating to make a point!

To my very limited knowledge of democratic systems in various countries, it seems the US and the UK share this one-man constituency system. Probably based on need 200 years ago where someone needed to be elected in a remote county, and people needed to ride for days to announce who won.

So, in the US, a majority voted for Hilary, but Trump won. In the UK, a majority voted for parties or candidates that wanted to cancel or put Brexit up for another vote, but Boris got a huge majority.

All of the UK's democratic neighbors have a system that aims at honouring personal votes. Where I live, no-majority governments are a rule. Guess what, it keeps us from all kinds of idiots fooling the public and hijacking the country. It mandates consensus, which to you may sound as a veryyy - veryyy bad thing.

It sounds like you see the only alternative to the UK system being a one party system or socialism. This is interesting, and would I urge you to elaborate.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 23:58
  #4142 (permalink)  
 
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Darn, walked right into one of Pontiusís traps again...
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 11:58
  #4143 (permalink)  
 
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CJ - your logic is completely flawed I'm afraid, please give it a rest.
Back in 1997 when Labour had a landslide victory, far larger than the Conservatives have now (L418, C165, LD46) - I bet you the electoral system was fine and dandy then!
But lets look at the figures:
Labour: 13,518,167
Conservative: 9,600,943
Lib Dems: 5,242,947
Therefore 14,843,890 voted against Labour which logically means by your reasoning Tony Blair was a dictator who didn't have a mandate to govern the country - as considerably MORE people didn't vote Labour.

As flawed as our electoral system is, I personally think its better than some of the PR systems which often produce weak governments that are indecisive. (see the last 2 years)
Besides, if we had a PR system, think of all those fascists that would be MPs - there would literally be riots by certain factions of the left.

To bring it back on topic, I know a number of passionate remainers, a few voted Tory and a few Liberal - so to count the votes along party lines based on the Brexit stance as already stated is false.
The only main party that had a Brexit policy to enact the 2016 referendum was the Tories and they won. Ergo, Brexit (in some form) will now happen.
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 13:10
  #4144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Filler Dent View Post
Ergo, Brexit (in some form) will now happen.
Indeed, what would be interesting is some hints as to what is going to happen next.
Recently watched some experts discussing the future of brexit developments. The consensus was that though BJ is considered widely unpredictable, the most probable course of action will be to try and ensure his next election, so he might do everything for his electorate to be (relatively) satisfied, and avoid any major disruptions.

How would he do that ? The idea was that he would keep his country globally aligned with the EU rules - while telling the contrary to his countrymen - and agree to most of the EU demands like with the withdrawal agreement, in order for general lines to be agreed withing the very limited timeframe he is self-imposing.

The fisheries agreements will probably result in a status quo with another name, as I often had the opportunity to predict.
The end result is likely to be some sort of Brino with a faux-nez.
The best win-win scenario given the circumstances.
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 13:15
  #4145 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gargleblaster View Post
Darn, walked right into one of Pontiusís traps again...
😀
I posed the question as either or whereas in fact your coalition is a third way.

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Old 28th Dec 2019, 14:16
  #4146 (permalink)  
 
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Having watched a lot of the BBC parliament channel in the last few months,
I am not convinced that MP's should be allowed to decide anything.
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 14:40
  #4147 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by esa-aardvark View Post
Having watched a lot of the BBC parliament channel in the last few months,
I am not convinced that MP's should be allowed to decide anything.
Well that's a shame. They chose the Prime Minister for the next five(?) years.

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Old 28th Dec 2019, 14:59
  #4148 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Well that's a shame. They chose the Prime Minister for the next five(?) years.

Maybe that was his point ?
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 17:11
  #4149 (permalink)  
 
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Apologies if this has been previously posted, I’ve checked back on the thread and can’t see it.

A little festive podcast, Ivan Rogers (the former UK ambassador to the EU), delivered a talk to Policy Scotland, University of Glasgow just before UK election, viewing the current Brexit landscape, with the aid of Dickens’ A Christmas Carol.

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/gho...ure-full-text/

For an audio only version, follow the RT… "Brexit Republic" link

https://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/a...82195_232_.mp3

JAS
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 21:33
  #4150 (permalink)  
 
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Look let's be clear this government is Dominic Cummins government. He's made clear what he wants. Check him out online. He doesn't even pretend otherwise. I give him credit for that.

Johnson is a puppet because of course he has no real agenda except to become PM. He's a liar. We all know that. But the worst thing he believes own lies.

He's achieved that but like a dog who chases cars he has no real idea of what to do when you catch one. He's lied his way to the top.

This next year will be interesting.

But this time next year the UK will leave without a deal which is of course DC'S and BJ's intention all along.

Of course the reality of Brexit will be obvious by then. All the fantasy will be dissipated.


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Old 28th Dec 2019, 22:07
  #4151 (permalink)  
 
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CJ - your logic is completely flawed I'm afraid, please give it a rest.
Interesting statement, based, like so many responses here on nothing but personal, totally flawed perceptions. You have absolutey NO idea of my likes/dislikes/politics other than what I post here and your conclusions derive from assumptions coloured by your own prejudices. Such deliberative processes debase any form of debate and have all the logical value of playground temper tantrums. A suggestion - just read the words, try to understand what's written, not your 'knee-jerk reaction to it. A vain hope. perhaps but "politics is the art of the possible! ???
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 22:19
  #4152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
But this time next year the UK will leave without a deal which is of course DC'S and BJ's intention all along.
i disagree. BJís only intention Was to get elected. Leave remain, he didnít care. He read the tea leaves and went with leave. I think the royal we do him a great disservice in calling him a bafoon. He alienated everyone including his own family to achieve his holy prize. To become the 19th Etonian PM. All else is secondary to that.
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 22:37
  #4153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post

Johnson is a puppet because of course he has no real agenda except to become PM. He's a liar. We all know that. But the worst thing he believes own lies.

He's achieved that but like a dog who chases cars he has no real idea of what to do when you catch one. He's lied his way to the top.

This next year will be interesting.

But this time next year the UK will leave without a deal which is of course DC'S and BJ's intention all along.

Of course the reality of Brexit will be obvious by then. All the fantasy will be dissipated.
Not sure what this DC guy really wants, besides "destroying the system".
This is what I read :
I suspect Cummings has long seen Johnson as a useful vehicle awaiting a driver
Considering his resume, he would appear to this foreigner as some sort of guru the politicians are unable to get rid of...
Speaking of politicians, we have some mediocre specimens on the Continent, but you beat us hands down...

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Old 28th Dec 2019, 22:41
  #4154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post


i disagree. BJís only intention Was to get elected. Leave remain, he didnít care. He read the tea leaves and went with leave. I think the royal we do him a great disservice in calling him a bafoon. He alienated everyone including his own family to achieve his holy prize. To become the 19th Etonian PM. All else is secondary to that.
Actually you're right. I give him too much credit. The tragedy is that he achieved his ambition. To be PM.

He's made it. But it won't be to benefit of Britain or even England. Or anyone frankly.

I find it hard to imagine that he ever thought he would preside over the end of the UK.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 03:17
  #4155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
Actually you're right. I give him too much credit. The tragedy is that he achieved his ambition. To be PM.

He's made it. But it won't be to benefit of Britain or even England. Or anyone frankly.

I find it hard to imagine that he ever thought he would preside over the end of the UK.
again I have to disagree. Itís been to the benefit of his Borisness. Itíll be interesting to see what Cummings does to ruin the country. Whilst my employer is ďBritishĒ (ish) I have the ability to bail out to a different country if I need to. Commuting will be an arse but I need to look after me and mine first so if I need to bail I will. I wonít be the first or last (a fantastic pub the way. Well first and last actually).

thats the one advantage I have over the grumpies that were desperate for this outcome. I can bail. I donít want to. Despite not being British I love this country. My family love this country. My children are British (and A.N. Other European nationality). But we can leave as and when we need to. Those that can worse afford to not will feel that pain first. And they voted for what the daily mail and the sun told them to.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 10:51
  #4156 (permalink)  
 
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Andrewn

Thanks for your considered reply recently.

I recognise the identification of [Brexit driving] issues you listed and agree broadly with them. Where I am sceptical is in the causality (opinion already given) and solution/s. Particularly with resect to future economic wellbeing of the UK, I just don't see the rationale behind the idea that you leave a huge trading block to increase trade and do so more successfully and freely. In fact, the libertarian promise promoted by the likes of JRM and his like looks like a wrecking ball for those very parts of the UK that have had a guts full .

If the argument is that Britain wants to be more protective of its identity and have more control internally, that will require a much increased element of state intervention and protectionist policies. But most economists seem to agree that protectionism leads to lower trade volumes, not only between countries, but also within the respective countries, in which case it is simply hard to see how that can lead to anything other than reduced economic volume for Britain and that in turn would leave less room to borrow and finance any desired model.

Of course the other possibility is an even more libertarian model: reducing as many barriers to trade as possible, low tax base, lowering protective controls against the more ruthless excesses of capitalism. But as the UK has already gone a long way in that direction for four decades, selling many national assets into private and often foreign hands, it is hard to see how much room for manoeuvre there is in that direction without making things even more ugly than they already are. Ugly as in poor. And poverty is a coat of many patches, covering much, but being manifest for what it is.

Contrary to popular media depiction, it appears that the most significant element of the 2016 Brexit vote were white, well-positioned voters in South England. Of course, this element of the electorate will probably fare better whatever the trends result from Brexit. But I am not concerned about them, it is the majority of other citizens and their future that troubles me. I find it very hard to imagine a believable image of a shared notion of Britishness emerging from this. Somebody's going to throw their no longer distracting toys out of the pram.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 13:29
  #4157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
CJ - your logic is completely flawed I'm afraid, please give it a rest.
Interesting statement, based, like so many responses here on nothing but personal, totally flawed perceptions. You have absolutey NO idea of my likes/dislikes/politics other than what I post here and your conclusions derive from assumptions coloured by your own prejudices. Such deliberative processes debase any form of debate and have all the logical value of playground temper tantrums. A suggestion - just read the words, try to understand what's written, not your 'knee-jerk reaction to it. A vain hope. perhaps but "politics is the art of the possible! ???
Don't make me laugh CJ. I really couldn't care less what political leanings you have but your argument about "the popular vote" that you've been banging on about is totally pointless.
Your condescending attitude seeps into your posts, in particular post 4132 to YT - this forms my and I'm sure others perceptions of you.
I don't really participate that much in debates here, I get my popcorn out and watch from the sidelines mostly, but your ranting about the electoral system reminds me of the protests in London after the election and the champagne socialists carrying placards "not my PM", "no to racism", "refugees welcome" etc.
These ARE REAL temper tantrums! Protesting AGAINST the results of a democratic vote. If Corbyn had won I'd have accepted the result. I wouldn't have been happy about it, but that's the way it is.
Just like in the US and the argument Democrats won the popular vote. Pointless, when the voting system is such that the final result is not based purely on votes garnered by each party as I demonstrated from the figures in the 1997 election.
Are there flaws? Yes of course - there are pros and cons to every electoral system but this one has served the country quite well for a very long time.
Maybe start another thread then this one can be kept on Brexit and we could have a good debate about the pros and cons of differing systems.

As for Brexit, this has been updated https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/19/...no-deal-brexit
This coming year is going to be interesting. The UK government has a much stronger negotiating hand now, but the time table is tight.
The reasons for leaving the EU still resonate with the electorate and these issues will have to be addressed and immigration is still the big issue.
Interesting video I stumbled across yesterday, recorded only 10 months after the referendum which gives the many reasons for Brexit.

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Old 29th Dec 2019, 15:11
  #4158 (permalink)  
 
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the results of a democratic vote.
Funny old word, that! Used, used,, over-used and used again to try to justify what is mainly unjustifiable but ... never, ever, a definition! How strange! You could, of course, make yourself unique amongst JB contributors and educate us with your deeply considered, popcorn inspired offering. I would wait with 'bated breath but the lungs aren't what they used to be.
VERY pretty pictures and chart and I'm sure it was worth the effort ... Just how many of the UKs (approx) 67 millon citizens voted to Leave the EU? Just asking, you see.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 15:17
  #4159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
.. Just how many of the UKs (approx) 67 millon citizens voted to Leave the EU? Just asking, you see.
More than voted to remain.
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Old 29th Dec 2019, 15:29
  #4160 (permalink)  
 
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More than voted to remain.
Indisputable - BUT of the 67 million, just how many (in round NUMBERS or Percentages) was that - or is shyness or not wishing to boast, holding you back?
Presumably, Filler Dent is wading manfully through the OED?
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