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BREXIT

Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:01
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Somebody on the other thread was saying that the anti Brexit petition was strongest around Cambridge. This was meant as a criticism. That would be the Cambridge of Hawking, Newton, Darwin, Turing, Watson, Crick, Keynes and Rutherford.
not to mention Guy Burgess, Donald McLean, Kin Philby, Anthony Blunt etc. Remind me whose side they were on?
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:09
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I think the Mod/s have let this thread run just to show how pathetic the Brexit discussion can get. Not a pretty sight.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:17
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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You've arrived at a Brexit deal, but your parliament can't agree on it.
Hold a second referendum now the actual form of Brexit on offer is clear and see if the people prefer actual Brexit (as opposed to rainbow unicorn Brexit) versus remain.

And maybe this time let ALL UK citizens (over 18) vote, including those who live abroad!
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:38
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Far too sensible...
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:50
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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The politicians have started the blame game lead by Mrs May- forget all this scrutiny and democracy bit just vote for what i tell you and if you dont then everything is your fault
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:52
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Ah a picture of the Pharachute regiment who dropped at Arnhem, ignoring the advice of their own intelligence about re fitting SS Panzer regiments refitting in the area. Funny metaphor and photo to use in the circumstances, and before any one gets on at me my uncle is buried there.

Cheers
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:55
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nonsense View Post
You've arrived at a Brexit deal, but your parliament can't agree on it.
Hold a second referendum now the actual form of Brexit on offer is clear and see if the people prefer actual Brexit (as opposed to rainbow unicorn Brexit) versus remain.

And maybe this time let ALL UK citizens (over 18) vote, including those who live abroad!


And how about letting all EU citizens resident in the UK vote.

And also letting all EU citizens, who don't pay taxes in the UK by the way, studying at UK universities have a vote.

In fact, as the UK leaving the EU will massively impact on those EU citizens and, particularly, the farmers, who are economically dependent on the UK's contributions, then should they be allowed to vote as well ?

But then you'd also have to include all those other EU citizens not in the UK who will by impacted by having to pay more taxes to Brussels to make up for the loss of the UK's contributions, so maybe they should have a vote as well.

Seems to be that in the event of another referendum, in true EU style the Remain vote could then have a 400 million head start
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:20
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
And how about letting all EU citizens resident in the UK vote.

And also letting all EU citizens, who don't pay taxes in the UK by the way, studying at UK universities have a vote.

In fact, as the UK leaving the EU will massively impact on those EU citizens and, particularly, the farmers, who are economically dependent on the UK's contributions, then should they be allowed to vote as well ?

But then you'd also have to include all those other EU citizens not in the UK who will by impacted by having to pay more taxes to Brussels to make up for the loss of the UK's contributions, so maybe they should have a vote as well.

Seems to be that in the event of another referendum, in true EU style the Remain vote could then have a 400 million head start
It would have been perfectly logical to allow the voter roll for the Brexit referendum be the one used for the local and municipal elections, rather than the list for General Elections - nothing more, nothing less. That would have allowed some non UK residents to vote, and since they pay their taxes here, and contribute to the economy, it would have been absolutely fair to do so. However Cameron appeased what we now know as the ERG, and the "blue rinse / retired colonel" elements within the wider Tory party by no doing so. That appeasement has continued right up to yesterday when in the face of objections from the ERG Mrs. May dropped any reference to a longer extension to Art.50 in her "Dear Donald" letter (I would have thought that out of respect to him and his position, Dear Mr. Tusk might have been more appropriate address).

I'm in two minds as to whether UK national resident abroad should have got the vote, they don't live here having chosen to make their lives outside the UK - their decision, nobody forced them to do so.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:32
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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SallyAnn

Iím sorry. I must have misunderstood the following from your post:

Not really. If their minds were opened wider they wouldn't be Brexiteers.

Surely you can see how I may have misconstrued your sentiments.

Surely everyone who comes down hard on either side of the argument is going to see their opposing number as narrow minded?

BV
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:33
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
... they don't live here having chosen to make their lives outside the UK - their decision, nobody forced them to do so.
As someone who had to leave the UK to find work in Europe, I somewhat resent the implication that I automatically lose my right to vote on UK decisions. Especially decisions that directly impact my ability to carry on working and my ability to travel between the UK and my place of work.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:36
  #31 (permalink)  
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Hold a second referendum now the actual form of Brexit on offer is clear and see if the people prefer actual Brexit
But the actual form of Brexit isn't clear and one of the real problems with the whole thing is that the debate has been heavily one-sided. It has mainly been a case of Remain supporters - including, before the referendum, HM Government and David Cameron who was the architect of the whole thing - telling us how awful it will be outside the European Union. In the 43 years of membership it is hard to see what benefit membership has bestowed upon us that would justify such a hard Remain position. There have been benefits, it is true, but on the other hand two economic crashes and the transfer of much of our primary industry to continental countries (using subsidies paid partly from our own contributions) make a substantial body of disadvantages. For me the jury is out but the verdict is quite uncertain. Life outside the EU is highly unlikely to be as dreadful as the Remain campaign would have us believe.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:37
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
It would have been perfectly logical to allow the voter roll for the Brexit referendum be the one used for the local and municipal elections, rather than the list for General Elections - nothing more, nothing less. That would have allowed some non UK residents to vote, and since they pay their taxes here, and contribute to the economy, it would have been absolutely fair to do so. However Cameron appeased what we now know as the ERG, and the "blue rinse / retired colonel" elements within the wider Tory party by no doing so. That appeasement has continued right up to yesterday when in the face of objections from the ERG Mrs. May dropped any reference to a longer extension to Art.50 in her "Dear Donald" letter (I would have thought that out of respect to him and his position, Dear Mr. Tusk might have been more appropriate address).

I'm in two minds as to whether UK national resident abroad should have got the vote, they don't live here having chosen to make their lives outside the UK - their decision, nobody forced them to do so.
See, that's something which i find very 'undemocratic'. If i am a citizen of germany (and i can proove this with my german passport), i have to be able to vote in german GEs and other votes apart from local elections... Wether i live abroad or not...
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:44
  #33 (permalink)  
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When I (voluntarily) left UK to work abroad as an expatriate I forfeited the right to vote in UK elections. By the time the law changed to grant expatriates the right to vote in General Elections I had been resident abroad for more than 15 years, so I remained disenfranchised until my return to UK. I don't think I was unfairly treated as I was still entitled to British diplomatic protection and other benefits of citizenship. I certainly don't see why people who are exempt from paying UK tax should have any say at all in the running of the country.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:49
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed

I am a citizen of Canada as well as the UK. I can think of no reason why I should vote in a Canadian election (thereís one this year) when I am not resident there.

BV
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 14:51
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ThorMos View Post
See, that's something which i find very 'undemocratic'. If i am a citizen of germany (and i can proove this with my german passport), i have to be able to vote in german GEs and other votes apart from local elections... Wether i live abroad or not...

No taxation without representation and no representation without taxation.

To me makes sense and how it should be.

Not dependent on citizenship, residency, place of work, etc, but where you and to whom you pay your taxes because you should be able to have a say in how your taxes are spent and no part of the decision making process in a country where you don't pay tax.

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Old 21st Mar 2019, 15:34
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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There is a UK Government and Parliament petition to "Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU" which is gaining some traction.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:03
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I am a citizen of Canada as well as the UK. I can think of no reason why I should vote in a Canadian election (there’s one this year) when I am not resident there.

BV
I can think of a reason...

I am a British Citizen that lived and worked abroad for several years. I had full voting rights in UK elections whilst I was out of the country. I still paid taxes in the UK on various UK incomes and so should have the right to vote on who set the tax rates and spent the money.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:39
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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And maybe this time let ALL UK citizens (over 18) vote, including those who live abroad!
Hear hear wholeheartedly. Some of us who post on this forum may live abroad, work abroad, pay local and UK taxes, live peacefully in our countries of residence and try to show respect to those who make the laws in the country we live in and in our own home country too.

I am so very fed up of anyone asking me about Brexit .... I had no say in the matter, my ongoing welfare has never even been alluded to, and those who are in the UK, who can vote (and hopefully have voted) are watching their political system implode, with a lack of dignity and respect to no one, not even members of their own electorate.

'You' (the great British public over 18 who exercised their privilege to vote) decided my future without consulting me or letting my views be expressed. By goodness, what a laughing stock UK politics (and politicians) have become .... even more than what's happening in other EU member states.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:50
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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And maybe this time let ALL UK citizens (over 18) vote, including those who live abroad!
Maybe I've misunderstood but I am resident in France (and pay taxes in UK as well) and I voted in the referendum much as I do in local and general elections by using a postal vote.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Depends how long you've been out of the UK. After 15 years, you're out, with no strikes.
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