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BREXIT

Old 17th Oct 2019, 04:53
  #3141 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post


It also is NOT an English fight for independence against the EU, there was NO independent nation vote to leave and I wish people would stop inferring there was, it was a single combined vote.
That's not how I see it where I live.

It is very much a fight for percieved ENGLISH independence against the EU. The single combined vote will inevitable favour the numerically dominate nation so if the ENGLISH vote to leave the rest of us just have to accept it...!!!

On the other hand, if the ENGLISH voted to leave the UK, almost everybody else would accept that and we could have avoided all this heatache.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 07:38
  #3142 (permalink)  
 
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New headache for Boris. Seems like the DUP will reject the deal. If the DUP reject then the ERG will deject. Which means the blame for rejecting the deal canít be laid against the EU or parliament. Well he could blame parliament, but the right of the party (the ERG) are his main supporters. So blaming them will just open the door to the brexit party in an eventual general election and hurting the tories more than the other parties.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 07:51
  #3143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OilCan View Post
It is very much a fight for percieved ENGLISH independence against the EU. The single combined vote will inevitable favour the numerically dominate nation so if the ENGLISH vote to leave the rest of us just have to accept it...!!!
https://nation.cymru/news/wales-brex...rd-university/
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 07:59
  #3144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post
New headache for Boris. Seems like the DUP will reject the deal. If the DUP reject then the ERG will deject. Which means the blame for rejecting the deal canít be laid against the EU or parliament. Well he could blame parliament, but the right of the party (the ERG) are his main supporters. So blaming them will just open the door to the brexit party in an eventual general election and hurting the tories more than the other parties.
Odd isnít it - when the official opposition have opposed the previous Withdrawal Ageement in Parliament, the usual suspects have been on here instantly frothing about democracy, the will of the people, treason and traitors. However each time the DUP (and most likely their ERG lapdogs) do it, silence! And this time they canít complain about the deal being orchestrated by a Remainer, as this one has been done by their mop-haired saviour.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 08:01
  #3145 (permalink)  
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Low n slow......thanks for the insight as to your career and familiarity with said road. I still remain bemused however as to why, with the future in mind, you are critical of the upgrade. As for the improvements around Abergavenny, I drove through them almost every day during their construction. It was a pleasure to drive through them later when they had been completed.

Back to Boris ......shame about the DUP given Treeza bunged them about £1bn to support her minority Gov't......still, that's Arlene sticking to her principals for you.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...urdles-cartoon
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 08:08
  #3146 (permalink)  
 
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KnC; from a personal perspective I think the new road will be great, I just think the money could have been better spent elsewhere such as on a bypass/expansion of the Brynglas Tunnels for example.

Back to Brexit: So here's what the "snakes on a train" have been up to in the EU. Are they purporting to represent the British Government or, even worse, the feelings of the UK in toto?
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 09:03
  #3147 (permalink)  
 
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No good blaming others for Pfeffel's signal failure to negotiate a deal that was acceptable. Maybe it's just inflation, thirty pieces of silver no longer sufficient for the DUP to sell out their country.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 09:03
  #3148 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
Back to Brexit: So here's what the 'snakes on the train' have been up to in the EU. Are they purporting to represent the British Government or, even worse, the feelings of the UK in toto?
Leave/Brexit supporters don't have a monopoly on trying to change the results of referenda. Because you don't like it makes it wrong. Democracy continues now as it did after 2016. 3 years on opinion could have changed. Do you want to test it? Probably not
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 09:27
  #3149 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
Odd isnít it - when the official opposition have opposed the previous Withdrawal Ageement in Parliament, the usual suspects have been on here instantly frothing about democracy, the will of the people, treason and traitors. However each time the DUP (and most likely their ERG lapdogs) do it, silence! And this time they canít complain about the deal being orchestrated by a Remainer, as this one has been done by their mop-haired saviour.
The media pointed out when May resigned that the new PM would face the same problems that she did. That turns out to be absolutely true. The DUP blocking anything remotely sensible or pragmatic, egged on by the "no deal" brigade within the Tory party - the ERG.

I personally would call the DUP's bluff and impose a referendum of Northern Ireland as to whether they wish to stay in the UK and outside the EU, or join the Irish Republic, within the EU. It won't happen because the Tory party is wedded to the Unionist cause, although their partner party was always the Official Ulster Unionists, whop are now largely an political irrelevance.

As it is there are now two choices, referendum based on Johnson's new deal, if such a deal actually exists, or a general election. As it is since the ERG is hell bent on ano deal, and will stand four square with the DUP, the Tory party needs a pretty substantial majority in a general election for any pragmatic agreement to cancel out the votes of the DUP and ERG. Would he get that, given the Tories will likely lose seats in Scotland, and the Brexit party will split the Tory vote in England and Wales? Could be quite difficult to achieve.

It's (still) a God awful mess!
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 09:42
  #3150 (permalink)  
 
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We'll see, but everything at the moment is pure speculation and the negotiations continue, an acceptable to all deal may come, it may not. It's been amusing to watch the media attempt to fill up the gaps in their "content" this week with no actual facts to go on. Most stories seem like click bait to me.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 09:43
  #3151 (permalink)  
 
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If it comes to a General Election would Boris risk all by sticking to his disdain for the Brexit party. If they split his vote he could lose all to Labour or maybe to a minority Labour government. The consequences could be a catastrophe for the country. Or will he swallow his pride and go for the almost sure thing. Will T May's experience teach him anything?

If he does not produce Brexit by October 31st I imagine his credibility will take a bad knock.

And what is the back door court attack from the remainers over the NI tax thing? Is that credible? Desperately sad to see politics by court case in the UK.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 10:06
  #3152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post
If it comes to a General Election would Boris risk all by sticking to his disdain for the Brexit party. If they split his vote he could lose all to Labour or maybe to a minority Labour government. The consequences could be a catastrophe for the country. Or will he swallow his pride and go for the almost sure thing. Will T May's experience teach him anything?

If he does not produce Brexit by October 31st I imagine his credibility will take a bad knock.

And what is the back door court attack from the remainers over the NI tax thing? Is that credible? Desperately sad to see politics by court case in the UK.
I have some sympathy for Boris Johnson. He is coming close to getting a new agreement, that may possibly close to, but different to May's agreement. It is probably the best we can hope to get. But he's fighting against the ERG - essentially a party within his party, and the DUP before he even starts on the official opposition.

However unless he is particularly dim, it can't have come as a surprise to him.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 10:06
  #3153 (permalink)  
 
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It's no small irony that Northern Ireland should be the stumbling block to England's, yes England's ambition to gain 'independence' from a 'union'.
​​​​​​
The desperate need to cling onto part of Ireland because of the so called 'loyalty' of a small proportion of the population has caused nothing but problems over the years. A lot of blood, sweat and tears has been shed for those six counties.

Now this. Worse the DUP doesn't even represent the majority in Northern Ireland. Yet they hold the whip hand over the UK and the EU.

It's almost laughable.

Well you reap what you sow.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 10:19
  #3154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
It's no small irony that Northern Ireland should be the stumbling block to England's, yes England's ambition to gain 'independence' from a 'union'.
​​​​​​
The desperate need to cling onto part of Ireland because of the so called 'loyalty' of a small proportion of the population has caused nothing but problems over the years. A lot of blood, sweat and tears has been shed for those six counties.

Now this. Worse the DUP doesn't even represent the majority in Northern Ireland. Yet they hold the whip hand over the UK and the EU.

It's almost laughable.

Well you reap what you sow.
I thought the majority in Wales also voted to leave the EU, didn't they?

People all over the UK and NI voted in the referendum, so it's a bit misleading to assume that the outcome is somehow only the result of those votes cast within England. Even 44.2% of those in Northern Ireland voted to leave, so it was far from being the whole of NI that wanted to remain. The two regions that dominated the remain vote were Scotland and London (38% leave and 40.1% leave respectively), with every other region in England and Wales voting to leave.

The outcome may well have been different had all those living within the other countries that make up the UK, apart from England, had voted to remain, but as they didn't, then the outcome has to be considered a decision reached by the whole of the UK.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 10:35
  #3155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post
If it comes to a General Election would Boris risk all by sticking to his disdain for the Brexit party. If they split his vote he could lose all to Labour or maybe to a minority Labour government. The consequences could be a catastrophe for the country. Or will he swallow his pride and go for the almost sure thing. Will T May's experience teach him anything?

If he does not produce Brexit by October 31st I imagine his credibility will take a bad knock.

And what is the back door court attack from the remainers over the NI tax thing? Is that credible? Desperately sad to see politics by court case in the UK.
Part of me thinks that Leavers who voted for the Brexit party in the European elections might come back to the Conservatives in a GE. If they don't the outcome is likely to be another hung Parliament and nothing getting done for a few more years, or no Brexit. I think this is why Farage is actually desperate for a deal with the Conservatives because he knows his support may well leak away in a GE.

If you consider that with the whip removed from a number of the more vocal remainers in the party Johnson has the freedom to determine whether to replace them with Brexit leaning candidates and hoover up more BP votes. If he reaches a reasonable deal that most leavers could live with and the alternative is Labour or Labour propped up by SNP or Lib Dem, then there aren't really many other places for them to go. If he gets a deal and it is frustrated by the remain majority in Parliament I could see why the Conservatives would view that as platform for winning an election.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 10:41
  #3156 (permalink)  
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So, deal done in Brussels - now it has to clear parliament on Saturday.

Now we see if the leaks earlier about the EU telling the UK this is the last offer, take it or leave hold true.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 10:50
  #3157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
So, deal done in Brussels - now it has to clear parliament on Saturday.

Now we see if the leaks earlier about the EU telling the UK this is the last offer, take it or leave hold true.
So now we wait and see how big the new bung to the DUP had to be to get them on board - or has he gambled that any deal at this stage will get enough Labour votes to pass despite the DUP? And will we be able to see any significant difference to Mayís deal?
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 11:11
  #3158 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
So now we wait and see how big the new bung to the DUP had to be to get them on board - or has he gambled that any deal at this stage will get enough Labour votes to pass despite the DUP? And will we be able to see any significant difference to Mayís deal?
That would be a big gamble. I can't see any Labour MPs voting for a deal of any kind.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 11:23
  #3159 (permalink)  
 
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Boris has been chucking so many billions around in the Queen's Speech that a few more to the DUP wouldn't go amiss. I reckon he'll buy their support.
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Old 17th Oct 2019, 11:23
  #3160 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
My question would be "what is the purpose of that unique identifier on the voting slip?".

Surely, once a voter has been identified and verified, what he elects to do with his voting slip is of no consequence to anyone.
There are other ways to make the voting slip identifiable as a valid instrument if you really need to have that level of verification.
As regards the unique identifier, it is to ensure that the ballot paper is genuine. One time each had to be impressed with a special press. Later they have a printed mark on the back.

Allowing for tracing a ballot paper to an individual does indeed breach anonymity but is only permitted if fraud is suspected. I think postal voting and postal registration are at biggest risk of fraud.
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