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No More Gas

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No More Gas

Old 14th Mar 2019, 21:13
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
In addition to the savings in building the house there will be a massive saving in extending the gas network to new estates. Where 'mains gas' has been a significant selling point for home owners and big builders alike, I can see the big builders jumping earlier 'selling future home's today.

There will also be unforeseen consequences over time. While there will still be a need for plumbers the highly trained gas-safe plumber will die out. Who is going to go down the expensive gas-safe route of a dying trade?

There will probably be a reduction in the number of proper copper plumbers too.

But is direct electric the only way?

Could a wet system be fun using heat pumps and electric? As the eco home will probably have solar will the running costs be that high? There is also oil-fired to consider.
I currently work for a national plumbing and heating merchants. We supply a number of new build housing projects, and they are all built with gas boilers. So while there will be plenty of work over the next few decades for the replacement of existing boilers etc, the likes of my employers will find a huge hole in their sales once this ban comes into effect. Furthermore, the companies that build them will have to find something else to make the difference. There won't be the need for the numbers they are currently producing, and oil and LPG equivalents won't fill the gap.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 22:29
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
I gas power station is way more efficients and less costly than 100,000 people burning gas.
No, it's not. Most new residential gas heat systems are between 80% and 96% efficient. Big industrial heat systems are nearly all over 90% efficient. A gas fired electrical generator is lucky to get 50% - and that's before transition losses.
It's far better to use heat to heat, than it is to use heat to generate electricity and then turn that back into heat.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 22:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Amazing that an incompetent useless government could find time to make utter mess of an entirely different situation.
Maybe not so surprising.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 07:53
  #24 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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We might be 5th largest economy but where are we in energy consumption or pollution? Last time i looked Oz was way up with US. Not sure where we are now.

Found 2013 figures

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...xide_emissions

Roughly, from the first bar graph we 14th by country and 15th per capita.

But Phil thinks we should set the World (USA) an example.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Your average gas condensing boiler is 90% efficient...Id like to see all the losses taken into consideration when providing electricity across the grid probably less than that i would have thought. If you have PV panels there are 9 weighting factors that reduce/ influence the efficiency of panel alone....shading, aging of panels, cleanliness of panels, diode losses inverter plate losses ect ect...
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:37
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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My experience of Air Source heat pump units suggest that they cannot accommodate ongoing heating with "a lingering high pressure system over the UK". That rules out anywhere North of Brum. Building regs in the Eastern USA don't permit them North of Virginia.

IG
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:49
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not clear what point Burnt Fishtrousers is trying to make but I've had PV panels on my roof for over 6 years. They have never failed to generate less than 18% more over a year than was forecast. Last year was the best so far at 29% over forecast so not much evidence of aging yet at least. I did clean them a couple of years ago but it had no obvious effect on their output. I think the official forecast that has to be given when selling panels is deliberately a bit pessimistic.

I do agree that until we have a way of providing long term energy storage at an economic price, electricity cannot replace gas as a form of heating in the UK. I've also been involved, professionally, with a number of air source heat pump systems from differenet manufacturers and in different locations, and can confirm that they don't work well in the UK when it is cold outside. The problem in the UK is that we often experience high humidity when it is cold and extracting heat from the air causes frost to form on the coils. The heat pump system then either fails to extract heat from the air at all or spends much of its time working in reverse in order to defrost the coils. I believe this is less of a problem in more continental climates where cold air is usually drier than in our maritime climate.

As has been pointed out in earlier posts, gas is so much cheaper than electricity per kWh that even if heat pumps are three times as efficient in energy use as gas boilers, they cost more to run. And of course, they are many times more expensive to buy to start off with. They are also more complex and cost more to service.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 20:12
  #28 (permalink)  
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Our first home in Scotland was all electric; we only got gas later. Heating was a massive storage block and warm air distribution. It was effective and relatively inexpensive with off peak hydro electric st 1.6 p/kW IIRC.

It had several drawbacks. It kept the house warm until the core lost heat. At night it would store heat and was often too hot in the back hall. Its response during seasonal change was too slow.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 21:38
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Changing from Gas to Electric, just like changing cars from Petrol and Diesel to Electic has a strategic side effect that people are clearly not considering, well 2 in actual fact.

First is justifying increased investment into New Nuclear Power stations.

Secondly and more important is undermining the Middle East hold on the sale and burning of fossil fuels. Being able to store and transport electricity in siqnifucant quantities would then start to become interesting

The links are from another thread and show at the moment France in generating more electricity from Nuclear than the whole of UK Demand. https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:45
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
My experience of Air Source heat pump units suggest that they cannot accommodate ongoing heating with "a lingering high pressure system over the UK". That rules out anywhere North of Brum. Building regs in the Eastern USA don't permit them North of Virginia.

IG
I've seen a lot of heat pump installations in Colorado (where it gets far colder - sub zero F is not uncommon, and -30F is not unheard of). Usual installation is heat pump when the temps are moderate, supplemented by electric heat when it gets too cold for the heat pump to work effectively (there was a significant period when they didn't allow new natural gas hookups due to concerns over future supplies - fracking has pretty much eliminated those concerns.) Added benefit that the heat pump became an air conditioner when it got hot during the summer.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 00:45
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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perfectly serviceable coal fireds only 35%(some)efficient.Gas fired CCGTs 55%efficient.This is all approximate of course.So all those huge cooling towers emitting water vapour was the waste heat you could not utilise ,unless there was some kind of district heating nearbye and there never was in the UK.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 05:02
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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the air heat pumps annoy me..... And the temp goes below -15 for two months of the year and they are utter crap efficiency below 0 deg. When it goes over 20deg when you want aircon its also crap....

So I went for a ground heatpump. Efficiency 540% and the efficiency stays the same summer and winter be it 40 deg or -30 deg. Although it does drop a bit in -30 because the under floor heating circuit feed goes over 35deg so its only 500% then.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 09:30
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I have just renovated an upper floor flat with no gas supply. It used to have night storage heaters, which I dislike because they do not supply heat in a timely manner or when I want it (instantaneous gratification). My builder recommended an electric boiler......it supplies a wet, underfloor system and heats up pretty quickly. It hasn’t been operating for long enough to work out costs but seems to do what I need. The property is very well insulated so the heating seems to spend a lot of time “off”.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 09:44
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oldpax View Post
perfectly serviceable coal fireds only 35%(some)efficient.Gas fired CCGTs 55%efficient.This is all approximate of course.So all those huge cooling towers emitting water vapour was the waste heat you could not utilise ,unless there was some kind of district heating nearbye and there never was in the UK.
Yes there was. Battersea power station used to pump waste heat under the Thames to heat a large council estate across the river.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 09:57
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Air heat pump

I have had a air heat pump in my house for the last 5 years. Quite satisfied with it. The COP is best (practically) between 0-10 C and not awfull above -10C. The new generation two stage pumps work well to -20 and somewhat to -30-.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:01
  #36 (permalink)  
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Flyingfemme, sounds like an eminently suitable system and potentially suitable for off peak heating too with water heat boost as required.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:04
  #37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Battersea power station used to pump waste heat under the Thames to heat a large council estate across the river.
'District Heating' is a major service in Denmark with 64% of the population benefitting.
Big towns have a centralised system whilst smaller rural settlements have local heat stations - some using straw as fuel.

https://www.danskfjernvarme.dk/sitetools/english
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:07
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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My builder recommended an electric boiler......it supplies a wet, underfloor system and heats up pretty quickly. It hasn’t been operating for long enough to work out costs but seems to do what I need. The property is very well insulated so the heating seems to spend a lot of time “off”.
Those boilers loose about 1-2 kWh of heat per 24 hours once up to temp. And as you have said the key is good insulation. Modern standard is 270mm of rockwool minimum I have 300mm in my place but that was more being lazy having to source 3 different sizes of thickness instead of a bulk order of 100mm and then have to store them so I could access all three sizes. the difference between 270mm and 300mm is virtually no return for energy saving.

Your biggest saving is the fact the wet floor feed temperature will be down at 35deg instead of radiators which need to be up at 50-60 deg.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:08
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Not only does it mean more power stations are needed, but the transmission infrastructure will need uprating - which means more and bigger sub-stations.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 13:41
  #40 (permalink)  
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You're all missing the point. The government is tackling Global Warming with measures for reducing - and eventually eliminating - carbon emissions.

The entire country is to be covered in solar panels, wind turbines and battery building factories.
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