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Martin McGuiness honoured by America

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Martin McGuiness honoured by America

Old 23rd Mar 2019, 23:37
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The IRA always maintained it was a justified war against an occupying enemy but were very selective about their own adherence to the Geneva Convention. When it suited them, they accused the RUC and British army of abuses of human rights but systematically tortured their victims and thought nothing of shooting captive prisoners - civilian or military - in the back of the head.

I believe what finally brought an end to ‘The Troubles’ were incidents in the US, such as the Oklahoma bombing. It woke a lot of Irish Americans up to what it was like to experience terrorism first hand, and on their home soil. As a result, it then stemmed the flood of funding for the IRA by idealistic and romantic descendants from the Enerald Isle. Sinn Fein then had no choice but to settle their issues democratically and politically rather than through an ‘armed struggle’ AKA known as extortion, racketeering, thuggery, etc etc.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 00:01
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of the IRA were idealistic at the beginning. If you lived in NI that was no surprise. The Unionists/Loyalists/Protestant/Police had an agenda to suppress nationalism and Republicanism. But essentially it was sectarianism almost unknown in Britain.

If you were an Irish Catholic you were an enemy a threat to the union. Whether it was true or not they made it come true.

As a result even moderate people got sucked in. I met one once. I was surprised how much we had in common. To be fair he rejected it but really I simply couldn't understand why he was fooled by it in the first place.

Don't be so quick to judge.


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Old 24th Mar 2019, 08:50
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
A lot of the IRA were idealistic at the beginning. If you lived in NI that was no surprise. The Unionists/Loyalists/Protestant/Police had an agenda to suppress nationalism and Republicanism. But essentially it was sectarianism almost unknown in Britain.

If you were an Irish Catholic you were an enemy a threat to the union. Whether it was true or not they made it come true.

As a result even moderate people got sucked in. I met one once. I was surprised how much we had in common. To be fair he rejected it but really I simply couldn't understand why he was fooled by it in the first place.

Don't be so quick to judge.
I fully accept that Catholics were discriminated against in NI - I’m a child of Irish Catholic immigrants who grew up with stories and examples of the prejudices that were experienced by family members. But, there was no excuse for the IRA’s campaign of terror and organised crime in the 1970s. Protest and political pressure - fine. Bombs, lynchings and torture - no.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 10:58
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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If the civil rights movement had been listened to in the 1960s instead of being laid into with RUC batons, then the resulting 29 year long civil war might not have happened. Peaceful men like John Hume and Gerry Fitt were sidelined and the men of violence took over.

The Catholics got what they wanted anyway with proportional representation and an end to discrimination, had this been granted in the 1960s history would be completely different.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 19:48
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BehindBlueEyes View Post
The IRA always maintained it was a justified war against an occupying enemy but were very selective about their own adherence to the Geneva Convention. When it suited them, they accused the RUC and British army of abuses of human rights but systematically tortured their victims and thought nothing of shooting captive prisoners - civilian or military - in the back of the head.

I believe what finally brought an end to ‘The Troubles’ were incidents in the US, such as the Oklahoma bombing. It woke a lot of Irish Americans up to what it was like to experience terrorism first hand, and on their home soil. As a result, it then stemmed the flood of funding for the IRA by idealistic and romantic descendants from the Enerald Isle. Sinn Fein then had no choice but to settle their issues democratically and politically rather than through an ‘armed struggle’ AKA known as extortion, racketeering, thuggery, etc etc.
What brought and end to the Troubles was Bill Clinton, he knew the history of ireland well before being elected. UK Government interfered in US election in providing Bush campaign with dirt on Clinton when he was a Rhodes scolar, Bush didn't use it to his credit unlike McCain and others aganist Trump. Bush campaign provided the dirt to Clinton campaign post election. Not sure Major was involved but like Steele dossier people had agendas.

History showed every agreement Uk made on Ireland they changed it to suit themselves, be in partition and Border agreement vote in 1920's, disenfranchising people who were Catholic from 1920's onwards. Clinton refused to allow them do so and tied Major up in trying to get an agreement. Unfortunately Major had to rely on Unionists and his hands tied, bit like Teresa May. Get to know some DUPers and you will come away wondering are they for real, sadly they are.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 01:50
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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What needs to be remembered is that Protestants are no longer a majority in NI, they were the largest single group at 48% vs 45% Catholic at the last census in 2011, however the Catholics outnumbered them in the younger demographics. Protestants were a majority only in the over 65s, the next census is due in two years time and with more Catholics reaching voting age and more Protestants dying of old age, the 2021 census will almost certainly show a Catholic majority. This is probably the case at the moment but won't be confirmed until the next head count.

The British government will be dealing with Nationalist MPs rather than Unionist ones in the very near future. Prior to the 2017 general election, Britain has had six hung parliaments since the beginning of the 20th century, in many of these Ulster MPs played a major role in deciding who took power. Usually they supported the Conservatives but I very much doubt that Sinn Fein will.

It's perfectly possible that in the next decade, British party leaders could be visiting the Sinn Fein offices and Gerry Adams might get to decide who becomes Prime Minister, something I'm sure he would gladly come out of retirement to do.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 11:39
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
If the civil rights movement had been listened to in the 1960s instead of being laid into with RUC batons, then the resulting 29 year long civil war might not have happened. Peaceful men like John Hume and Gerry Fitt were sidelined and the men of violence took over.
Peaceful men like John Hume were not sidelined, they thankfully stayed on the scene, even in 80's when UK media abused him for talking to Adams. Problem is after Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday, how do you convince a population that see armed soldiers doing as they like with zero sanction that they should "Trust" the London Government.

The Catholics got what they wanted anyway with proportional representation and an end to discrimination, had this been granted in the 1960s history would be completely different.
DUP has done everything in its power to ensure Zero concessions on anything,this has been the standard. They would rather do nothing for decades and this is their plan rather than offer any concession. Derry / Londonderry had a gerrymandered council until that was abiolished and one put in where councillors in ward of similar size. First thing Unionists demanded was that there should be equal sharing of senior roles where as months previously it was no concessions from them on anything. Brexit is making a border vote look more probable.

I would also suggest that you look at the terms using, PUL - Protestant, Unionist and Loyalist is term used and CNR - Catholic, Nationalist, Republican. Assumming it is a sectarian headcount is the standard I have heard about for 40 years where reality is it has never been.

People can be ALL of the terms or none or one. Know more than a few Protestant Nationalist who have never been part of Unionism.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 12:35
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Things have changed vastly since the 1970s, back then any vote would have been almost entirely on sectarian lines. These days, Catholic grievances have have largely been addressed and there is less for the Protestants to fear in a united Ireland as the influence of the Church is vastly diminished. Some Catholics might prefer to remain part of the UK and some Protestants might want to be in a member state of the EU.

A united Ireland has always been the aim of the south however the cost of taking over the north is the equivalent of the annual health budget and the entire political landscape changes. Losing NI means a significant cost saving to Britain and no more doing deals for Ulster votes but could result in the unravelling of the United Kingdom as Scotland might decide to follow.

The next few years will be very interesting as a Catholic majority will most likely be confirmed in 2021 leading to calls for a referendum. How the vote would go is another matter as sectarian divisions would be less important.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 12:45
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
Things have changed vastly since the 1970s, back then any vote would have been almost entirely on sectarian lines. These days, Catholic grievances have have largely been addressed and there is less for the Protestants to fear in a united Ireland as the influence of the Church is vastly diminished. Some Catholics might prefer to remain part of the UK and some Protestants might want to be in a member state of the EU.

A united Ireland has always been the aim of the south however the cost of taking over the north is the equivalent of the annual health budget and the entire political landscape changes. Losing NI means a significant cost saving to Britain and no more doing deals for Ulster votes but could result in the unravelling of the United Kingdom as Scotland might decide to follow.

The next few years will be very interesting as a Catholic majority will most likely be confirmed in 2021 leading to calls for a referendum. How the vote would go is another matter as sectarian divisions would be less important.
IF NI were to exit then its not like on 31st of December they leave and UK pay nothing forever more.

I would also suggest you have a look Westwards and think how much US would be putting in. Think of a big figure and double it. Nowt to do with religion in the US. Lets face it George Washington talked of his core group of support who had left Ireland as were persecuted for their beliefs, they weren't Catholics either.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 13:20
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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The EU would likely pick up a significant part of the cost of reunification. Any deal would have to involve guarantees of citizenship and property rights for the Protestants, the terms on offer would be a significant factor in the outcome of a vote. Either way the Unionists need to face the reality that the sun is setting on their days in charge and they need to adapt to their new position as a minority. Stopping provocative marches through Catholic areas celebrating centuries old battles would be a good start.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 13:45
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
What needs to be remembered is that Protestants are no longer a majority in NI, they were the largest single group at 48% vs 45% Catholic at the last census in 2011, however the Catholics outnumbered them in the younger demographics. Protestants were a majority only in the over 65s, the next census is due in two years time and with more Catholics reaching voting age and more Protestants dying of old age, the 2021 census will almost certainly show a Catholic majority. This is probably the case at the moment but won't be confirmed until the next head count.

The British government will be dealing with Nationalist MPs rather than Unionist ones in the very near future. Prior to the 2017 general election, Britain has had six hung parliaments since the beginning of the 20th century, in many of these Ulster MPs played a major role in deciding who took power. Usually they supported the Conservatives but I very much doubt that Sinn Fein will.

It's perfectly possible that in the next decade, British party leaders could be visiting the Sinn Fein offices and Gerry Adams might get to decide who becomes Prime Minister, something I'm sure he would gladly come out of retirement to do.
That's going to be difficult as it is a point of policy for Sinn Fein not to take their seats in parliament. Not sure sure if they take the salary and expenses though.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 15:31
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
The EU would likely pick up a significant part of the cost of reunification.
As Uk provides £1.5 billion a year would expect 20 years cost to be paid but amount dimishes every year.

Any deal would have to involve guarantees of citizenship and property rights for the Protestants, the terms on offer would be a significant factor in the outcome of a vote.
1998 Good Friday agreemnent already cover passports which is why lots of Unionists now have Irish passport. Property rights are irrelevant as Irish constitution protects right to property, that would not be changed and believe no law in Irish republic regarding discrimination of people's right to own land based on religion.

I am aware when farming land is being sold that religious background is looked into because as a Unionist landowner said "We don't want papists owning land around here". This said to me at a baptism in Antrim last year. His grandson whose child was being baptised just told his grandad that when he inherited the land it would be sold only to papists. Grandson openly has called his Grandfather a "sectarian bigot" because of what he did is the past. This all in Paisley area. Most of this guys contemparies who went to Uni in UK, stayed and don't seek to return.

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Old 25th Mar 2019, 15:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
That's going to be difficult as it is a point of policy for Sinn Fein not to take their seats in parliament. Not sure sure if they take the salary and expenses though.
SF will never take their seats in London, they just following 100 year old precedence as 1st Lady elected to House of Commons never took her seat.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 19:33
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
That's going to be difficult as it is a point of policy for Sinn Fein not to take their seats in parliament. Not sure sure if they take the salary and expenses though.
A quick google reveals that some allowances are claimed for running London offices for example, but, interestingly, they are denied MP salaries.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 00:24
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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If Sinn Fein had the chance to decide who took power in London, they could easily change their minds. I'm sure the Unionists would want guarantees against future laws being made threatening their property, fortunately land isn't the major issue it is in South Africa and Zimbabwe. Catholics aren't demonstrating for the return of land seized hundreds of years ago, a 9-5 job and a house in the suburbs is more appealing than getting up at 5:00am to milk the cows.

Comparisons can be made with previous British withdrawals from its colonies and things look a lot brighter for the unionists than they were for whites in Africa. The Irish Republic is a modern, stable democracy adhering to the rule of law and human rights. The country is safe, prosperous and freedom of religion is guaranteed. The influence of the Catholic Church has waned since the 1970s, it has the most liberal abortion laws in Europe and a gay Prime Minister which would have been unthinkable forty years ago.

Protestants could retain British citizenship and the UK is a short ferry ride away. They wouldn't face any discrimination and would enjoy equal opportunities, unlike whites in South Africa. As older hardliners of the Ian Paisley era die off and the troubles fade into history, reunification would be more acceptable to a younger generation.
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