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Anti Vaxxers

Old 4th Mar 2019, 21:42
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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A complimentary study of equal or greater value might be one which positively identifies why huge swathes of people will "believe what they want to believe" in the face of overwhelming scientific research to the contrary.
ie 12 children in original study (now debunked) against 500,000 in this Danish study.
Yet some (many?) will continue to believe, seemingly because that is what they want to believe.

I can't help but think that identifying the "why" is at the heart of flat earth theory, every conspiracy theory, etc. etc.

I am undoubtedly one of the worlds great skeptics / cynics, but I do still understand logic.
It seems that many only get the first parts.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 03:44
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
A complimentary study of equal or greater value might be one which positively identifies why huge swathes of people will "believe what they want to believe" in the face of overwhelming scientific research to the contrary..
Indeed. I genuinely believe this is a real threat to civilization. Science is driven by ideas, imagination, skepticism and challenges, but that must be followed by rigorous testing of ideas. The technological world we inhabit is built by that process, but people who use its products every day are happy to ignore it when making critical decisions such as 'do i vaccinate my child', or 'is global warming real'. Even the totally mad ideas such as flat earthism are not just a joke they erode the boundaries of the rational. It is all very strange and very concerning when we try to run the world by democracy.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 03:54
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by eko4me View Post
Years later in the UK my family was blessed to cross paths with the wonderful Walter Plowright whom my better half helped to look after to his end - and a right good fellow too - a true gentleman scientist. The night he died, I raised a glass of Scotland's finest drop and gave thanks to his life on behalf of all my African friends - known and unknown - to the man who removed such a scourge from that beautiful land.
I am jealous. I never met him but worked with people who worked with him on the eradication of rinderpest. They speak of him as a semi-divine figure. That whole story is fascinating, it needed a combination of hard science, incredible organisational skills and understanding the social context in which they were working - the concept of participatory epidemiology was invented in the process. The current polio, HIV and other programs should perhaps be paying more attention to those lessons
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 05:17
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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thanks for that Carbon, thanks to your post I have just fired a email off to my GP asking if I can get jabbed with the new one. Will probably have to pay for it but such is life cheaper than taking time off work. It sounds a nasty thing to have anyway.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 09:12
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Carbon, you have set me thinking, I have never had chicken pox but my mother in law has shingles, I wonder if it would be worth my while being vaccinated.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 09:28
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Stay away from her if you haven't had CP before. In fact to be safe don't speak to her either on the phone...…… after a couple of years you should be safe again.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 10:36
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
Indeed. I genuinely believe this is a real threat to civilization. Science is driven by ideas, imagination, skepticism and challenges, but that must be followed by rigorous testing of ideas. The technological world we inhabit is built by that process, but people who use its products every day are happy to ignore it when making critical decisions such as 'do i vaccinate my child', or 'is global warming real'. Even the totally mad ideas such as flat earthism are not just a joke they erode the boundaries of the rational. It is all very strange and very concerning when we try to run the world by democracy.
Yep, I too find the flat earthers opinions strange and somewhat disconcerting. However, I find other things a lot more worrying.

You probably won’t be surprised when I say that I genuinely believe that suppression of non-conformist thinking is equally a threat to civilisation. Intellect is not the magical saviour that people worship, just as they worship gods. I think the gut feeling that a parent feels, should not be easily dismissed as it frequently is. Maybe it’s time that anecdotal evidence should be somehow included in the scientific picture.

I think that ‘they’ might equally do a study into ‘righteousness’, but who would we choose to write such a paper?

I can see how people can totally believe they’re right, but misunderstand or ignore a different viewpoint. A viewpoint that may not radically change their own view, but perhaps soften their opinion about other, differing, opinions.

Sadly, no matter how logical the arguments of you, me, and others, will never be able to change the opinion of my friend who watched her son display disturbing symptoms soon after receiving the MMR jab in the early nineties. There are thousands of similar reports. For them this has been life changing, devastating. It is complicated, but until it happens to you, you cannot understand. I get so frustrated when I see people that were lucky, and can only see the side that missed the bullet, angrily shout down anyone that had a very different experience.

“The road to hell is paved with good intention.” Is one of my favourite sayings.p, I realise that it works in more than one direction.

I would like this post to leave people feeling more open, rather than tightening them up! Did it work? Probably not!


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Old 5th Mar 2019, 11:27
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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I suppose we should bear all this in mind too...

https://www.healthnutnews.com/as-med...kStrzmF9x5waBw
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 11:38
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post


Yep, I too find the flat earthers opinions strange and somewhat disconcerting. However, I find other things a lot more worrying.

You probably won’t be surprised when I say that I genuinely believe that suppression of non-conformist thinking is equally a threat to civilisation. Intellect is not the magical saviour that people worship, just as they worship gods. I think the gut feeling that a parent feels, should not be easily dismissed as it frequently is. Maybe it’s time that anecdotal evidence should be somehow included in the scientific picture.

I think that ‘they’ might equally do a study into ‘righteousness’, but who would we choose to write such a paper?

I can see how people can totally believe they’re right, but misunderstand or ignore a different viewpoint. A viewpoint that may not radically change their own view, but perhaps soften their opinion about other, differing, opinions.

Sadly, no matter how logical the arguments of you, me, and others, will never be able to change the opinion of my friend who watched her son display disturbing symptoms soon after receiving the MMR jab in the early nineties. There are thousands of similar reports. For them this has been life changing, devastating. It is complicated, but until it happens to you, you cannot understand. I get so frustrated when I see people that were lucky, and can only see the side that missed the bullet, angrily shout down anyone that had a very different experience.

“The road to hell is paved with good intention.” Is one of my favourite sayings.p, I realise that it works in more than one direction.

I would like this post to leave people feeling more open, rather than tightening them up! Did it work? Probably not!
They easy way people dismiss peoples belief because "Science" tell us something is interesting. Is this the Science that was used less tha 100 years ago to say Black people were inferior so it is justified in treating them differently. It has been used other ways since and will be again but couched in different PR language

How is Thalidomide doing for morning sickness ? or the countless number of drugs that get pulled each year because of side effected.

Sadly there are many people who jump on board the latest bandwagon be it antivaxxers or provaxxers. Anybody who says anything different is abused and called flat earthers and other names. Drugs do not do the same thing to everybody, in exactly the same way that viruses and pandemics do not kill everybody.

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Old 5th Mar 2019, 11:39
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Back on topic. To me, Japan’s action makes sense.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...R-vaccine.html
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 11:41
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
I suppose we should bear all this in mind too...

https://www.healthnutnews.com/as-med...kStrzmF9x5waBw
Nobody ever asks about the disabled babies and kids adopted from parents in central American countrys for supposed loving families in the US and Canada. Wonder does it correlate to Hearts, Kidneys, Lungs etc that become available for transplant in hospitals.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 13:06
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
Back on topic. To me, Japan’s action makes sense.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...R-vaccine.html
That is strange, because my reading of the same article brings me to the opposite conclusion...

The triple jab was banned in Japan in 1993 after 1.8 million children had been given two types of MMR and a record number developed non-viral meningitis and other adverse reactions.

Official figures show there were three deaths while eight children were left with permanent handicaps ranging from damaged hearing and blindness to loss of control of limbs.
Sounds bad until you read...
However, he admitted the MMR scare has left its mark. With vaccination rates low, there have been measles outbreaks which have claimed 94 lives in the last five years.
Sadly, litigation has forced Japan into into an action which costs lives.
But the authorities cannot be sued for the 94 lives that are due to not having the jab. So that puts them in the clear.


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Old 5th Mar 2019, 13:11
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
They easy way people dismiss peoples belief because "Science" tell us something is interesting. Is this the Science that was used less tha 100 years ago to say Black people were inferior so it is justified in treating them differently. It has been used other ways since and will be again but couched in different PR language

How is Thalidomide doing for morning sickness ? or the countless number of drugs that get pulled each year because of side effected.

Sadly there are many people who jump on board the latest bandwagon be it antivaxxers or provaxxers. Anybody who says anything different is abused and called flat earthers and other names. Drugs do not do the same thing to everybody, in exactly the same way that viruses and pandemics do not kill everybody.


Every advance in science started as someone's gut feeling, it was then tested in an attempt to prove it wrong. Ideas that survived that process slowly entered mainstream thinking. Yes, there is sometimes a problem with scientific 'inertia', there are a few recent examples where the conventional wisdom resisted a crazy new idea which turned to be right - H. pylori is one example and I can think of a few others, but in general science is driven by crazy new ideas. There are plenty of examples of that: PCR was famously dreamed-up in a drug-induced state, the big bang, the steady state universe etc etc. There are also examples of crazy new ideas too readily accepted - high temp fusion springs tot mind.

Absolutely true that not everyone reacts the same way, that touches on my own research area and there is a huge problem with the fact that current medical research is based on a tiny fraction of the diversity of the human population.

But to repeat, no-one says 'science' is perfect, in fact that is a meaningless statement; science is not a body of knowledge but a way of working. And that has really only emerged as distinct from religion in the last 100 years or so. I love the quote from a 'scientist' who on seeing a planet had a moon, concluded it was inhabited because God had provided a moon for its inhabitants.*

* can't find that quote exactly...help?...
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 07:26
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by troppo View Post
Like most things, there’s more to it than just a headline.

https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2019/...ush-to-denmark
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 07:55
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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The thing is, though, the article posted is just that, a headline, an artlcle. It appears to be a list if unsubstantiated opinions. The author says he reckons autism is caused by the Hep B vaccine.
because..... Nothing evidential. Apparently, no other vaccines have been studied for a link to autism. If that's the case, then no conclusions can be drawn concerning other vaccines, but that doesn't stop the author drawing them
A considerable amount of research has been performed, however, before and after the Wakefield debacle.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 08:49
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post


Like most things, there’s more to it than just a headline.

https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2019/...ush-to-denmark
and to counter the oxygen theif that is J.B. Handley

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/j-b...gly-j-b-loses/
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 09:21
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post


and to counter the oxygen theif that is J.B. Handley

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/j-b...gly-j-b-loses/
Mmm calling someone an ‘oxygen thief’ gives away your bias, it doesn’t really help your argument. Neither does this..as the author or the article you posted is Dr David Gorski.

” If you ask people to comment on cancer surgeon Dr. David Gorski ("ORAC"), a lot of words and phrases get repeated with striking frequency. "Sociopath" "Hate monger" "Pathological liar" and even "A danger to society."

https://www.naturalnews.com/053734_D...Institute.html
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 09:32
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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i stand by my oxygen thief comment. I don't care that i am showing my bias. Oxygen thieves like him and the pro deathers have got many many lives on their hands. The thrust with handley was he pushed that "mercury" in vaccines caused autism. as "mercury" was eliminated from vaccines autism rates stayed the same so he pivoted.

It all comes from a completely discredited and medically negligent Andrew Wakefield that fraudulently published a medically discredited and redacted article. Yes all those things show how i feel about the issue.

Here's a thought. Pro deathers feel that autism is worse than death.

as to the article i posted, it was the first of many by a vast array of authors that discredit him
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 09:56
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
The thing is, though, the article posted is just that, a headline, an artlcle. It appears to be a list if unsubstantiated opinions. The author says he reckons autism is caused by the Hep B vaccine.
because..... Nothing evidential. Apparently, no other vaccines have been studied for a link to autism. If that's the case, then no conclusions can be drawn concerning other vaccines, but that doesn't stop the author drawing them
A considerable amount of research has been performed, however, before and after the Wakefield debacle.


Wakefield again? Don’t you think it’s quite surprising that Wakefield was a highly respected academic surgeon for years (10 or more) before becoming involved with the mmr ‘debacle’? I’ve read one of his books, and watched lots of videos featuring him. I too, have my doubts about him, but then I also have lots of questions I think are worth asking about the vaccine industry. Perhaps he became troubled under the enormous pressure anyone finds themselves under if they dare to swim against the tide in this industry. I think it’s a weird phenomenon like daring to question the Labour Party’s ‘anti-semitism’ problem, or the huge reaction to the death of Princess Diana.

Some people appear to be automatically convinced by anything ‘official’ or ‘science based’, as I’ve said before - I’m not in that category. I think we have to be sceptical of certain things. Things like who funds papers! You say that he offers little but ‘unsubstantiated opinions’. He gives us useful facts, like who paid for this paper. He also directs us to more info about this particular company. There are many other interesting ‘opinions’ that I and others find useful. For example:

The study authors throw around the word “unvaccinated” but at least in the study, they make clear this ONLY means “didn't get the MMR.” Said differently, the children received EVERY OTHER vaccine. Watch as people try to say this is a vaccinated versus unvaccinated study. It isn’t. Here’s an example:”

I don’t think this discussion is as one sided as you would like it to be.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 10:09
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post


Like most things, there’s more to it than just a headline.
You know how professional pilots get annoyed and possibly insulted, when someone whose only flying experience is via youtube, posts videos of imaginary near misses or go arounds and starts telling the professionals where they are going wrong? That's somewhat how I feel when stuff like that is posted. I try to be polite and constructive, but then I think life is too short and its not my responsibility.
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