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Anti Vaxxers

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Anti Vaxxers

Old 18th Jun 2019, 16:24
  #601 (permalink)  
 
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There's nothing to be gained from trolling about actual facts.

Much more fun to troll about daft theories that get people worked up and wanting to reply.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 13:17
  #602 (permalink)  
 
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Rabid conspiracy theorists have near zero positive effect on the subject of which they scream.

There are some legit concerns on vaccine production when you have companies like Chiron finding that they had 50 million contaminated doses of influenza vaccine as late as 2004.
Finding that huge amount means the contamination occurred early in the process before it was amplified for wide distribution.
This points to the manufacturing process is lacking in checks and balances.
It also gives legitimacy to the rabid anti-vaxxers and encourages them that they are correct.
The anti-vaxxers are not correct but neither was the manufacturer who failed to produce upwards of 50 million contaminated doses.

The proper response lies somewhere in the middle in that there needs to be more attention paid to the production of vaccines.

For the average citizen, it is best to educate one's self on what you put into your body and choose based on the results of your research. If you can't be bothered?.....don't whine.

Personally, I approve of most vaccines but I do not participate in yearly vaccination.........but you can be damn sure I will be first in line when word is out that a particularly dangerous strain is making the rounds that causes a "cytokine storm" much like the h1n1 strain of 1918.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 15:01
  #603 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IcePaq View Post
Finding that huge amount means the contamination occurred early in the process before it was amplified for wide distribution.
This points to the manufacturing process is lacking in checks and balances.
Contamination can occur at any stage of the production process, but 'widespread' doesn't immediately indicate early processing, where arguably it is more likely to be detected.
A perfectly safely manufactured product could, for example, be compromised at the final vialling/packing stage where there may be fewer direct product tests. Quite a lot of pharmaceutical companies have their vialling/packaging performed away from their manufacturing site, by contract companies.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 15:12
  #604 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately contamination occurs ​​in many products that can affect people's lives. This is not unique to vaccines.

I don't know whether anyone was harmed as a result of the contaminated influenza vaccine, but we recently had the sad case of hospital patients dying due to food contaminated with listeria. The answer to that was to clean up the food chain, not to stop feeding patients.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 17:01
  #605 (permalink)  

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Bit like the anti-seatbelt folks who know someone who knew someone who died after being trapped in their car by their seatbelt.
Possible, I grant you - maybe 1 or 2 per year. Contrast this with the tens of thousands of lives saved each year by restraints.

I was a Casualty Officer in the UK when the seat-belt law came in. Enforcement was strict - 50 quid on-the-spot-fine for the driver.
Within a week we stopped seeing all those shredded faces (still see them in SA, law or no law).
The Organ Transplant folks were in hysterics - "Where are we going to get our donors now????"

The anti-vaxxers are more malign - no donors, but enough dead or post-encephalitic children.

Reminds me of that unforgettable scene in "The Third Man"

CALLOWAY: Have you ever heard of penicillin? CLOSE SHOT - MARTINS seated on arm of chair looking off CR for Calloway.
MARTINS: Well?
CALLOWAY (O.S.) In Vienna..there hasn't been enough penicillin to go round. So a nice trade started here...
Stealing penicillin from the Military hospitals - diluting it to make it go further and selling it to patients...Do you see what that means?
MARTINS: Are you too busy chasing a few tubes of penicillin to investigate a murder? CLOSEUP - CALLOWAY seated looking off CL for Martins.
CALLOWAY: These were murders. Men with gangrene legs...women in child birth...and there were children, too.
They used some of this diluted penicillin against meningitis. The lucky children died...
The unlucky ones went off their heads. You can see them now in the mental ward.


The lucky children were vaccinated, a few kids who were going to develop autism anyway did so.
Some of the unlucky children denied vaccination developed measles encephalitis.

"You can see them now in the mental ward....".

Mac
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 17:07
  #606 (permalink)  
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The Organ Transplant folks were in hysterics - "Where are we going to get our donors now????"
Motorcyclists...
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 19:38
  #607 (permalink)  

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Looks like a nasty 'flu season is brewing in Australia. I'll definitely get the 'flu jab in the Autumn when it's offered.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 01:31
  #608 (permalink)  
 
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Now let me see, I'm 67 y.o., flu deaths in this city are running at eight times the normal rate for this time of year.
Oh dear, what should I do, what should I do? It's such a hard decision to make.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 02:16
  #609 (permalink)  
 
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Had mine last month, have been getting it for the last few years. So far they seem to be working At least, they haven't failed to work, and I'm not suddenly autistic.
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 00:59
  #610 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
Contamination can occur at any stage of the production process, but 'widespread' doesn't immediately indicate early processing, where arguably it is more likely to be detected.
A perfectly safely manufactured product could, for example, be compromised at the final vialling/packing stage where there may be fewer direct product tests. Quite a lot of pharmaceutical companies have their vialling/packaging performed away from their manufacturing site, by contract companies.
50 million doses.

It's highly unlikely a single dirty machine caused 50 million doses to be bad.

It's also highly unlikely that a single production line was used for all 50 million.

If it were a significantly lower number such as 18,000 doses, I would be inclined to agree.
When I was working with vaccines in a level 3 containment lab at Georgetown university, I have seen contamination early in a process undo years of research causing retractions of published papers.
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 01:23
  #611 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hydromet View Post
Had mine last month, have been getting it for the last few years. So far they seem to be working At least, they haven't failed to work, and I'm not suddenly autistic.
May not be autistic but had joint pain from hell for three or so days.
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 02:37
  #612 (permalink)  
 
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57,000 people in the US died of the flu this last flu season. That's considerably more than the ~40,000 that die each year in the US in automotive accidents.
I had a cousin die of complications from the flu back when I was in college - young, health lady taken out in her prime.
I always wear my seatbelt, I think I'll keep getting the flu shot.
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 06:22
  #613 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dean View Post
May not be autistic but had joint pain from hell for three or so days.
Wife & I got ours together 10 days ago.
Mine completely uneventful.
Her arm swollen up and painful for 2 -3 days.
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 15:32
  #614 (permalink)  
 
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Long but interesting read.

“The points being scored here are *too easy*, and the temptation to score them — the more vehemently the better — is leading to a downward spiral of low-quality conversation, abetted by a culture of self-certainty and accusation. That is — many people are self-censoring on this topic, depriving others of the possibility of productive dialectic. With no one intelligently representing the alternative view, a chasm is opened, into which inferior versions (straw men — real but not representative) of the position are providing cannon fodder for online mobs of ideologues.”

https://medium.com/@gautamtejasganes...n-52c530b1d518
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Old 5th Jul 2019, 17:21
  #615 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
Long but interesting read.

“The points being scored here are *too easy*, and the temptation to score them — the more vehemently the better — is leading to a downward spiral of low-quality conversation, abetted by a culture of self-certainty and accusation. That is — many people are self-censoring on this topic, depriving others of the possibility of productive dialectic. With no one intelligently representing the alternative view, a chasm is opened, into which inferior versions (straw men — real but not representative) of the position are providing cannon fodder for online mobs of ideologues.”

https://medium.com/@gautamtejasganes...n-52c530b1d518
A much shorter and to the point read:
By Pietro Lombardi and Brittany Bernstein, Wall Street Journal

Measles Outbreak Plagues Europe's Young Adults
July 4, 2019 11:38 am ET
Finn McLoughlin, a 20-year-old Briton, didn’t receive a measles vaccine as a child because his mother believed there could be fatal complications from vaccines.
Measles “wasn’t that bad. We are told that it’s deadly, and it’s just not true,” said his mother, Marie McLoughlin, a 57-year-old British homeopath. In fact, she would have liked to see her son get more childhood illnesses because she sees them as helpful to the immune system. Mr. McLoughlin is one of about 4.6 million Europeans born in the past 20 years who aren’t vaccinated against measles, according to figures from the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, or ECDC, an independent agency of the European Union.

In the past two decades, millions of parents across Europe have been influenced by antivaccination campaigns that helped create a large pool of unvaccinated adolescents and young adults. Now, as Europe contends with a widespread measles outbreak—a disease that seemed close to elimination just a few years ago—health officials are considering obligatory vaccines for school-age children. But they face a challenge in reaching unvaccinated teens and adults. “You would expect measles in children,” said Nick Bundle, a specialist in vaccine-preventable diseases at the ECDC. “Measles is increasingly becoming a disease of adults in Europe.”

In the 30 countries surveyed by the ECDC, there were about 17,000 cases in 2018 and 18,000 in 2017, quadruple the 2016 figure. World Health Organization data showed about 83,000 cases last year in the region including Ukraine, where there was an outbreak of more than 50,000 cases, and other nations such as Russia and Israel. An underlying problem of the European outbreak was the fallout from the now-debunked 1998 study by British physician Andrew Wakefield that suggested a link between the MMR vaccine—which inoculates against measles, mumps and rubella in two doses—and autism.

“In Europe, we have a missed generation of unvaccinated children who are now adults, and we have no alternative” but find them and vaccinate them now, said Italian epidemiologist Vittorio Demicheli. “Otherwise, we’ll have measles outbreaks for decades.” The median age of measles patients in Europe has risen to 17 from 10 in the past decade. Between January 2016 and March 2019, individuals between 10 and 29 made up about 29% of measles cases, with the majority in those 20-29 years old, according to the ECDC. Those older than 30 accounted for roughly 20% of cases.

“This is quite striking compared with other countries,” Mr. Bundle said. For example, in the U.S., in cases reported between January and April the median age was 5, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Italy, where the number of babies receiving the first dose of the vaccine fell to 85% in 2015 amid antivaccine sentiment, had roughly 9,000 measles cases, including 13 deaths, reported between January 2016 and this past March, with a median age of 26. Italy has made vaccines mandatory for school-aged children. It is considering requiring them for applicants for some public-sector jobs, or demanding vaccine certificates for enrollment in sports programs.

British authorities have advised young adults going to concerts and festivals to be vaccinated against measles. The Glastonbury Festival of Contemporary Performing Arts, which started June 26, suggested that attendees check their vaccination status. In 2016, officials linked 52 cases of measles with festivals, and 16 specifically to Glastonbury. Many of these young adults grew up when vaccination rates across the U.K. fell to just about 80% after the Wakefield study. Now, this large group of unvaccinated, active people has made it more difficult for authorities to track and control the problem.
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