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BBC's shaky grasp of Australian history

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BBC's shaky grasp of Australian history

Old 27th Jan 2019, 12:50
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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How did a thread about Matthew Flinders degenerate into an occasional “my civilisation is better than yours” racist rant?
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 01:55
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Even our NSW Ch 7 newsreader got it wrong, quoting the discovery of the bones of Capt James Flinders
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 02:26
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bull at a Gate View Post
How did a thread about Matthew Flinders degenerate into an occasional “my civilisation is better than yours” racist rant?
Some of the First Nation people of Australia have the longest surviving culture extant in the world. This is not a claim be a civilisation.

I have had the opportunity to work in a couple of remote communities who maintain much of their traditional culture as well as embracing modern technology. These folk are not to be confused with urban mixed race people who practice no traditional language or lifestyle.

James Cook and later Mathew Flinders brought European civilisation to this country, creating an entirely different lifestyle and built environment.

The failure of some of the black peoples in Australia to participate fully in modern society is not from a lack of good intentions or funding, but from the inability of some to participate in the modern paradigm. .

FWIW


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Old 28th Jan 2019, 04:38
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dean View Post
Some of the First Nation people of Australia have the longest surviving culture extant in the world. ......

Not trying to be provocative or argumentative at all, but what does the above mean?
Perhaps people would be less critical / more accepting of the concept if it was better explained and supported by evidence that people could understand.

Without understandable explanation such statements will always attract the criticisms leveled above in Ascend Charlie's post.

That the current Australian aboriginal populace are directly descended from people who traveled to and occupied the land some 60,000 years ago is not logically questioned.
But how many people understand what "culture" means in this context? Is the concept of an unchanged culture, in the anthropological sense, supported by evidence?

If the migration came from southern and south-east Asia, why are the cultures there not older than the Australian aboriginal culture(s)? (Is there only one?)

If so, does that not infer that, following the initial migration, there was no further migration or outside influence until the landing of the Dutch / Spanish / English explorations?
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 05:43
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If the proportion of pure-bloods to mixed-bloods is around 20%, (I heard it was much less) then there are a lot of the "others" who wouldn't even be here if not for the arrival of non-aboriginals. Praise the Invasion, not condemn it.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 06:28
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You just can't live in the past. Move on.

An invasion was inevitable and the side with the best technology won. Simples.

And according to my Huawei phone, it was Chi M Cuc who discovered Orstralia.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 00:41
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An invasion was inevitable
It was not an invasion by the accepted definition of the word. The orders issued to Governor Phillip included,
You are to endeavour by every possible means to open an Intercourse with the Natives and to conciliate their affections, enjoining all Our Subjects to live in amity and kindness with them. And if any of Our Subjects shall wantonly destroy them, or give them any unnecessary Interruption in the exercise of their several occupations. It is our Will and Pleasure that you do cause such offenders to be brought to punishment according to the degree of the Offence. You will endeavour to procure an account of the Numbers inhabiting the Neighbourhood of the intended settlement and report your opinion to one of our Secretaries of State in what manner Our Intercourse with these people may be turned to the advantage of this country.
https://www.foundingdocs.gov.au/reso...2_doc_1787.pdf

Even after Phillip himself had been wounded in a spearing, and his gamekeeper killed by Aborigines, no retaliatory action was taken. Killing of an Aborigine by a settler would result in the perpetrator being hanged.

It is only natural that the Aborigine, seeing their clan decimated by the introduced diseases, and dispossession of their lands, would seek to drive out the interloper, and so open conflict broke out. White landowners resorted in some cases to building watch towers at their residences in order to readily see approaching Aborigines who might attack. The history is appalling, men would attend church on a Sunday and later go on Aborigine hunts. Massacres were common, the history of the USA being emulated. An unravelling of the good intentions of the beginning.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 22:25
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dean View Post
Some of the First Nation people of Australia have the longest surviving culture extant in the world. This is not a claim be a civilisation.

According to one of my professors some years back, in order for there to be civilization one must have the civi, aka, a city.
The English word civilization comes from the 16th-century French civilisé ("civilized"), from Latin civilis ("civil"), related to civis ("citizen") and civitas ("city").[12]
No city, no civilization.
Culture: local norms is where that starts, to include such norms as setting fire to women (different culture than the one under discussion) to avoid a dowry, or leaving captured prisoners to the tender mercies of the clan's tribe's angry women (Comanche) which translated into English often ended up as "tortured to death." (citation: Fehrenbach, Comanche)

"Respect my culture" demands should be treated warily, but not dismissed out of hand.
Discover, find out, observe. Compare and contrast.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 15:00
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Australians with History? What a novel idea.
Someone will argue that they have culture, next!
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 23:29
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Our ancient observer has never met Sir Les Patterson, then...
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 00:31
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[QUOTE=WingNut60;

If the migration came from southern and south-east Asia, why are the cultures there not older than the Australian aboriginal culture(s)? (Is there only one?)
?[/QUOTE]The salient word was "extant" as in still being practiced.
Of course there were other cultures earlier than the Australian one but they no longer exist.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 04:06
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dean View Post
The salient word was "extant" as in still being practiced.
Of course there were other cultures earlier than the Australian one but they no longer exist.
But the other cultures have evolved / changed and are thus no longer extant?
Is there any evidence to indicate that the aboriginal culture of 60,000 years ago has NOT changed in that time?
Or that it has not been influenced by subsequent migrations?

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Old 31st Jan 2019, 06:19
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Some of them claim that the nasty whities forced alcohol onto them, causing their massive problems today.

But it wasn't until comparatively recent times that they were allowed to drink - it was against the law before that. Any problems now are self-induced, similarly with the sexual violence prevalent in remote areas, self-induced from their "culture".
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 06:28
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
Some of them claim that the nasty whities forced alcohol onto them, causing their massive problems today.

But it wasn't until comparatively recent times that they were allowed to drink - it was against the law before that. Any problems now are self-induced, similarly with the sexual violence prevalent in remote areas, self-induced from their "culture".
And that is the very sad truth.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:39
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
But the other cultures have evolved / changed and are thus no longer extant?
Is there any evidence to indicate that the aboriginal culture of 60,000 years ago has NOT changed in that time?
Or that it has not been influenced by subsequent migrations?
Pretty much.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 07:55
  #36 (permalink)  
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For the white man, Australian history is short. I know people who live in houses in the UK which predate Captain Cook's landing at Botany Bay.

For the indigenous people, the history is very long. I'll never forget going to Lake Mungo ( dried up thousands of years ago) and taking a tour with an indigenous ranger. She pointed out some bits of charcoal poking out of the sand dunes. The undisturbed remains of a fire used to cook fish by the lake's edge tens of thousands of years ago.

Mungo Lady and Mungo Man
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 09:26
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Originally Posted by TWT View Post
For the white man, Australian history is short. I know people who live in houses in the UK which predate Captain Cook's landing at Botany Bay.

For the indigenous people, the history is very long. I'll never forget going to Lake Mungo ( dried up thousands of years ago) and taking a tour with an indigenous ranger. She pointed out some bits of charcoal poking out of the sand dunes. The undisturbed remains of a fire used to cook fish by the lake's edge tens of thousands of years ago.

Mungo Lady and Mungo Man
It's interesting to compare these examples of historical occupation with demands that modern day Aussies who own property should pay a "rent" to the native title holders along with their yearly rates. There is no doubt that the indigenous population have suffered at the hands of the "invaders", and that some acts which were considered to be in their best interest at the time are under the modern microscope considered to be barbaric examples of the oppressive white man (but never the equally oppressive white woman...).

The demands for reparations are also interesting when you look at them in a cold impassionate way. What exactly do they want? If then get what they want what will they do with it? Will they be satisfied if their demands are met or will there be more? But of course looking at things in that manner will not be well received. The hysteria (and I believe that description is accurate) around this and other "victoms" seems to me to be a symptom of modern times Everyone wants to be seen as oppressed, downtrodden, under the yoke of someone or something that should be overthrown.

As for the original question, I find that the BBC and other news sources will ensure that the victims names and details are very carefully used, but anyone who is not seen as an oppressed will be thrown in after a cursory glance.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 10:13
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But it wasn't until comparatively recent times that they were allowed to drink. Any problems now are self-induced
Many a charter pilot supplemented his meagre income by flying in slabs (smuggling) and selling at a greatly inflated price. White man is only too happy to put rules and regulations aside if there is a buck to be made and he has reasonable chance of getting away with it. Lets not put it all at the feet of the Aborigines.
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