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Nationalism. Good, Bad, Indifferent?

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Nationalism. Good, Bad, Indifferent?

Old 12th Nov 2018, 09:27
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Nationalism. Good, Bad, Indifferent?

Never have looked up the dictionary definition of "Nationalism".
No need. Quite happy with what I perceive it to be.
Pride in country, pride in being that country's citizen, willing to support your country's goals with enthusiasm.
Unless, of course, your country is being run by raving lunatics, and that's your fault in the end.

So, Trump, For. (pretty sure he doesn't quite know what it is, just another slogan to rally repeat.)
Macron, Against. (hard to believe from a ffrenchman)
and I imagine wide ranging opinions of the many aspects and many shades of grey in personal definitions.
Good thing ,bad thing, bit of both?
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 09:34
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Bad if you're Johnny Foreigner.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 13:18
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Nationalism Is good
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 13:40
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Hard to believe from a Frenchman!

He has surrended to the globalists, long ago.

( in true French fashion )
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 13:43
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There is a tipping point when nationalism becomes toxic, but we often forget that when 'it' goes below a certain point the same happens. Countries that become too diluted, as in with too few of a collective mind, start the journey to obsolescence.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 13:45
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If there is a sense of social cohesiveness in any given society or group, then nationalism arises as a natural progression of a developing sense of identity. Nationalism is inevitable.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 14:19
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There issue I have regularly seen with those strongly expressing pride in their nationality, is that they have very often lacked a full and balanced view of the impact, both negative and positive, their nation and State has had both at home and abroad. From my experience of traveling across Europe, North America and Asia, most who loudly trumpet their pride in their nation and nationality have a very "rose tinted glasses" view of their history and often are poorly informed of the warts in their national story, not to mention sometimes complete mythology passed off a positive history.

That said, no one citizen of a State or member of a nation is responsible for the past and current actions of their place of birth.

IMHO a well informed pride with humility in one's nationality is not necessarily a bad thing, however, jingoism, xenophobia and supremacist expressions, masquerading as nationalism and national pride should be pointed out and condemned.

As we have just marked the 100th anniversary of the end of the first industrial slaughter in Europe, it's worth keeping a perspective on history and what it tells us about the dangers of those wrapping themselves in their flag in the name of nationalism and pride in order to further their own agenda.

JAS
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 16:30
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Originally Posted by meadowrun View Post
Never have looked up the dictionary definition of "Nationalism".
No need. Quite happy with what I perceive it to be.
Pride in country, pride in being that country's citizen, willing to support your country's goals with enthusiasm.
Unless, of course, your country is being run by raving lunatics, and that's your fault in the end.

So, Trump, For. (pretty sure he doesn't quite know what it is, just another slogan to rally repeat.)
Macron, Against. (hard to believe from a ffrenchman)
and I imagine wide ranging opinions of the many aspects and many shades of grey in personal definitions.
Good thing ,bad thing, bit of both?
It's a shame you didn't look up the definition, because if you had you may have found this.....
nationalism
/ˈnaʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
nounnoun: nationalism
  1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts."an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"synonymsatriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; More
    xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, isolationism; ethnocentrism, ethnocentricity
    "the resurgence of nationalism in Europe and in other parts of the world"
    • an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.plural noun: nationalisms"playing with right-wing nationalism"
    • advocacy of political independence for a particular country."Scottish nationalism

      Cut and pasted to save anybody wondering...however....there's more than a few definitions which can be associated with the UK in the above.....bit of bad news here chaps, we've repealed public executions for anybody who dares to have a different opinion as to the UK's history, culture and self perceived status in the world.....albeit every nation could equally be said to have similar traits over the years.

      The problem is, the term has been hijacked to enhance the very worse traits, jingoism, patriotism being just two, as a convenient way to stir up emotions and thereafter transfer these feelings into another well established global human trait......the capacity to needlessly kill other humans just for the sake of being able to do so at times. Humans, and their emotions are, after all, the most self destructive species on the planet.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 16:56
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Was it not the great Dr Samuel Johnson who defined it most succinctly as " the last refuge of the scoundrel"
At 80 + and nearly half of that in uniform, I reckon the old boy got it about right,!! Looking at the most recent high-profile examples of apostles of Nationalism, we are faced with a meddling 'pot-stirrer' more suited to entertaining at a party for 4 year olds, and a relic from the turn of the (19th) century, both with the joie-de-vivre of Dickensian morticians. Given the less-than-inspiring efforts of (all) of our political elite, what on earth possessed a largish proportion of the population to opt for giving them the reins of power? Convivial get-togethers in breweries, maybe?
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 17:03
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"In 1774, he printed The Patriot, a critique of what he viewed as false patriotism. On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made the famous statement, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."This line was not, as is widely believed, about patriotism in general, but the false use of the term "patriotism" by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (the patriot-minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed "self-professed patriots" in general, but valued what he considered "true" self-professed patriotism".
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 19:02
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CJ, I would say it is a failure of the Electoral Commission to put 'none of the above ' on the ballot paper. If NOTA won then all candidates are rejected and the two parties with the highest number of votes can put up two new candidates.

Could be fun.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 20:16
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
The problem is, the term has been hijacked to enhance the very worse traits...


It's just another word tossed around for some perceived political advantage. The fuzzier the "definition" and the more it evokes strong emotions, the more utility it has. These words have so many "definitions" that they have no definition...and people seem to like it that way. Having to confine a discussion to facts related to a solid, agreed-upon definition would end much of what passes for debate.






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Old 12th Nov 2018, 20:33
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Being lectured to by the French on the evils of Nationalism is, indeed, a wry commentary.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 23:00
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Indeed. How did he manage to say it with a straight face? Particularly since French relations with EU have been probably more determinedly based on national self-interest than any other member and it was (I assume) a dig at Brexit.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 23:49
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Never understood why people can say they are proud to be English - or Scottish, Irish, American, Polish, Chinese or Australian etc etc. Same goes for being black or white , male or female, straight or gay etc

All of these are accidents of birth and are nothing to be proud of. I am proud of once having been an RAF navigator, or of gaining a Russian degree at age 47 - but of all the rest I am pleased I am British, but I am certainly not proud of the fact The other side of the coin is I am not ashamed of many things which others would wish me to be. I have not the slightest twinge of guilt about the worst excesses of the British Empire, the Irish famine, the slave trade etc, for the simple reason I wasn't around then - nothing to do with me.

So nationalism? Definitely a bad thing (very bad as a certain well known nationalist might add )
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Old 13th Nov 2018, 06:22
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Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav View Post
Never understood why people can say they are proud to be English - or Scottish, Irish, American, Polish, Chinese or Australian etc etc. Same goes for being black or white , male or female, straight or gay etc

All of these are accidents of birth and are nothing to be proud of. I am proud of once having been an RAF navigator, or of gaining a Russian degree at age 47 - but of all the rest I am pleased I am British, but I am certainly not proud of the fact The other side of the coin is I am not ashamed of many things which others would wish me to be. I have not the slightest twinge of guilt about the worst excesses of the British Empire, the Irish famine, the slave trade etc, for the simple reason I wasn't around then - nothing to do with me.

So nationalism? Definitely a bad thing (very bad as a certain well known nationalist might add )
Couldn't agree more.

As with anything, like religion, nationalism in a modest dose doesn't hurt but it doesn't really do much good either. If we identified as humans first and wherever we happened to be born through chance second, odds are we'd have had less wars and conflicts along the line. Nationalism is also a dangerously effective tool to get the masses behind a leader, whatever his intentions may be, as history has shown time and again.
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Old 13th Nov 2018, 08:07
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
Looking at the most recent high-profile examples of apostles of Nationalism, we are faced with a meddling 'pot-stirrer' more suited to entertaining at a party for 4 year olds, and a relic from the turn of the (19th) century, both with the joie-de-vivre of Dickensian morticians.
I assume you’re referring to BoJo and Jacob Rees-Mogg, neither of whom I would particularly regard as being “apostles of nationalism”. Are your opinions coloured by their high profile support for Brexit perhaps?
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Old 13th Nov 2018, 09:35
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Hmmm ....

Mother was a nationalist, of a sort. Anyone who asked, she was "Irish," even though she was a third-generation American citizen. Mostly what it meant was that she carried an ancient grudge against Great Britain, I think, and one that was much more fresh against her WASP neighbors from the little town she grew up in, Derby, Connecticut. There was a pecking order there with the WASPs first, the Irish second, the Italians third, and the Polacks last. (Mother liked to tell us how the Polish Falcons usually ended their picnics with a donnybrook. I wonder where she got that word .... )

I once had Phil the Greek in the back of our taxi, taking him back and forth from Kano to Nguru, Nigeria because of his then- role with the WWF. At the end of the trip, like the gentleman he is, he shook our hands, mine and my Captain's, and kidded us a bit about the quality of Nigerian ATC handling. (The controller first wanted to put us in a hold because there was a VIP flight arriving, not understanding that our Twin Otter was the VIP flight. That one sorted, he then wanted to vector us to a ten-mile turn onto final .... Jesus wept.) I took due care never to tell Mother that I had once shaken the hand of one of her arch-enemies.

People who like, or need, to wrap themselves in some flag are just showing how limited they are. It's notable that Trump likes to do that while being completely unwilling to endure even a trip in the rain to honor some of those who actually fought for our flag, let alone to have fought for it himself. (I understand that some wars are better than others, so that the one I attended, the same one Trump dodged, was a pretty poor show even judged by the low standards we apply to wars waged against Third World countries. That said, though, one could argue that it was good that we showed our willingness to fight against "Global Communism" in an era when that might have been more of a real threat. We can dismiss the "Domino Effect" now, with hindsight, but it might have become more real in the Sixties if we had just let the Republic of Vietnam go under without any effort at all.)

Have a look at those two figures who did make it to the Aisnes-Marne cemetery, retired general Kelley and General Dunford, stood there in the rain saluting while Taps was being sounded. Kelley is giving the proper salute, right hand on heart, civilian-style, for someone in civilian garb. Think about the sort of salute hatless, respectless, brainless Trump usually throws, the military style one with his right hand raised to his bouffant. Okay, maybe he needs to draw attention to his hairdo, but it's the wrong sort of salute even so. Then there is that revolting image of him grabbing the flag the same way he likes to grope his daughter, his style of nationalism. Call me a globalist!
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Old 13th Nov 2018, 09:43
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Here is empirical evidence that the concept of empire, evil in the names of ambitious men, has once again in Europe's tortured history of dictators and demagogues, superseded nationality. The past, the past, one is aghast!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-China-US.html
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Old 13th Nov 2018, 10:18
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Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav View Post
Never understood why people can say they are proud to be English - or Scottish, Irish, American, Polish, Chinese or Australian etc etc. Same goes for being black or white , male or female, straight or gay etc

All of these are accidents of birth and are nothing to be proud of.
I am pleased I am British, but I am certainly not proud of the fact
Have you been channeling the late, great George Carlin?

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