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Nationalism. Good, Bad, Indifferent?

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Nationalism. Good, Bad, Indifferent?

Old 19th Nov 2018, 18:26
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Wel some good points made their- nationalism with a very small n is fine-I support England at football but otherwise I am European -ethnically and socially.
Europe has seen what has been done in the name of nationalism and apart from the UK it seems doesnt want any more of it. In Uk we are edging towards a sort of nazi state especially if Boris and Rees Mogg get anywhere near power and at the moment we are pretty clsoe to the shambles that was Wiemar especially with talk of needing 'Strong Leaders' and dont say it can't happen here because it could , ignorance and distrust manipulated by crooked politicians is all it needs and we have the first two in spades and it seems a limitless supply of ignorant venal politicians. And Josef Goebels himself could have written the headlines for the Mail Express and teelgraph ona number of occasions.

When it all goes pear shaped when we leave the Eu , which it will to a fair degree whats going to happen to all the working class northerners who voted their job away and the retirees in Shropshire and the Cotswolds who see the NHS sold off to rapacious crooked American HMOs they are going to be pretty angry and will not focus on Eu citizens who are displaced these replacement foreigners wont look or sound or act European like we do will they?
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 19:20
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Immigration has destroyed any identity the UK once had, what values? what culture? what religion that binds them? It has all been diluted by PC to such an extent that even showing a Union jack draped from your window is seen as offensive and racist. I know many will disagree but identity was lost years ago, now you have a vacuous state in complete disarray with the population divided, and that is just the indigenous lot. Wear a cross? Not on your nelly, that would "offend" too many of our friends (and pressure groups/identity politics groups). "All things bright and beautiful" in Primary assembly? Possibly a criminal offence.

Blame lays squarely at the feet of politicians, they have literally destroyed the country, and my reckoning is it will get a lot worse, not better, growing up in the 1980's was not just a different era, it was an entirely different planet, haven't over 85% of all jobs since 2000 been taken by foreigners? Can I even use the word "foreigner" anymore or is that racist?

For what its worth: For all its faults Russia (where I live) has maintained its identity. Not that it would be difficult considering over 99.8% of Russia (99.7% Moscow) consists of indigenous native Russians - not trying to rub this in anyone's face (I'm actually part of the other 0.2%) - but it seems to have worked out well. Nationalism here is well... as you'd expect.

Am I racist? Well if being Racist is explaining why your country went down the tube.. yes.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 19:44
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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What a load of old toot.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 19:59
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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What a load of old toot.
Believe me I wish it was.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 21:04
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Okey dokey, be so good as to point me to a prosecution for All things bright & beautiful then, once you're done crowing over living in a country run by a murderous kleptocrat.
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Old 19th Nov 2018, 22:00
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Okey dokey, be so good as to point me to a prosecution for All things bright & beautiful then, once you're done crowing over living in a country run by a murderous kleptocrat.
I did say "possibly" actually I mean't it more rhetorically, that is even the Church is under threat. Mind you, some primary schools have withdrawn "Christian" hymns - probably as to not offend other pupils.

As for living in a country run by a "murderous kleptocrat", well, you are entitled to your opinion, and its a bit off topic (although Russia is probably one of the most Nationalistic countries on Earth so that stays on form) but I happen to to disagree with you, don't believe all you read online, most of it is garbage to fit a narrative to pursue an agenda... the bogeyman country... probably no doubt responsible for Brexit as well.

I do think nationalism is linked to unity and cohesion, bad mouth the UK in London and you'll likely get a load of assenting nods.... bad mouth Russia in Moscow.... you are as they say cruisin' for a bruisin'.... they take such things quite seriously.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 07:19
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
In Uk we are edging towards a sort of nazi state.....
And at that point you lost all credibility.......
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 08:13
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
I did say "possibly" actually I mean't it more rhetorically,
Rhetoric is exactly that, rhetorical. Your claims - hymns lead to prosecution, the state is in disarray, etc. etc. are fantastically ridiculous, it speaks volumes that you double down on them, simultaneously claiming that any critical thinking on Vlad the impaler is...well you know, just opinion.

You seem happy living in a sclerotic economy, overseen by a de facto dictator where journalists & opponents are routinely murdered, any dissent is ruthlessly quashed, foreign territory is seized by a sovereign state by force for the first time since WW2 & agents are sent abroad to kill those viewed as enemies of the state but not to the extent that they are actually sufficiently skilled at not being discovered and all because nationalism is good.

Right. That seems entirely credible...
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 09:26
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
I do think nationalism is linked to unity and cohesion, bad mouth the UK in London and you'll likely get a load of assenting nods.... bad mouth Russia in Moscow.... you are as they say cruisin' for a bruisin'.... they take such things quite seriously.
Not the part of Moscow that I live in. Moscow isn't Chechnya, this is the place where Putin gets just about the lowest electoral margins of the entire very large country.

People who would use their fists against anyone who doesn't agree with or "respect" the coincidental place of their birth/residence are primitives. Nothing more, nothing less and certainly nothing to be proud of.

Also, your stats about native Russians are complete hogwash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia And certainly in places like Moscow, inhabitants from former Soviet republics are vastly under reported, not least because many of them aren't officially here, obviously.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 10:05
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Macron called it out correctly last week where he said there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Unfortunately those who practice the former are too ignorant to educate themselves of the difference and subtleties which is why they are nationalists and not considered patriots.

Last edited by StuBob; 20th Nov 2018 at 22:27. Reason: Grammar
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 12:23
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Not the part of Moscow that I live in. Moscow isn't Chechnya
I don't need lecturing on Moscow thanks very much having lived here just short of twenty years, and Grozny incidentally is quite safe by the way.

Also, your stats about native Russians are complete hogwash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia And certainly in places like Moscow, inhabitants from former Soviet republics are vastly under reported, not least because many of them aren't officially here, obviously.
Sorry when I mean Russian I am including the CIS countries, i.e. not "foreign". and once again I don't need the Moscow lecture.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 13:11
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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What's fascinating to me is that nationalism is quite different in the US than it is in Europe. We are a nation of immigrants and nationalism here has nothing to do with ethnicity or religion. The US has a very unique national identity based on a set of shared values, rather than shared DNA or shared faith tradition. Leftists are working mightily here to destroy that identity, and with frightening success, but I am optimistic they will be overcome.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 13:27
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
I don't need lecturing on Moscow thanks very much.
I suppose that depends on whether you care about being factual or merely right in your own mind. I've never met a Moscovite who i would expect to attack me if I said anything negative about Russia. In fact most of them seem happy to complain about the way things are run here until the cows come home. In any case, Moscow is demonstrably more liberal than Russia as a whole.

And Grozny might be safe but that is one place where you don't want to stray too far from what is "officially" accepted. At least if you're local, foreign visitors get away with just about anything.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 13:55
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flash8 View Post
bad mouth Russia in Moscow.... you are as they say cruisin' for a bruisin'.... they take such things quite seriously.
So if a person who dares speak out when they see their fellow citizens or officals doing something that they believe is morally wrong, they risk physical violence being done to them?

Why does that remind me of Khashoggi? Or Daphne Caruana Galizia?

And you are proud of that trait in your country? I think you have just shown how nationalism can be a bad thing.

Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
I'm proud to be British, says the racist.
I need clarification on that.

There is an insignificant group of Britons of African or Aisian descent. For those people, I can only come up with three possibilities consistent with your statement.
  • Would they be racists if they say they are proud to be British?
  • Or do you consider them to be not true Britons?
  • Or do you think they are incapable of being proud to be British?
Which is the right answer?
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 14:56
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hempy View Post
“The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, whilst the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does”
Sorry for my bluntness, but that is complete total nonsense.

Last edited by KenV; 21st Nov 2018 at 03:13.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 15:04
  #56 (permalink)  
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Fairly indifferent. I don't live in my native country (UK) but haven't had any significant hassle about it. The Irish government does stuff for me, which I pay for in the form of taxes. I could be anywhere, really.

The idea of having some nationalistic attraction to the UK is a tough one. I left when I was fairly young and have only returned for a few days every few years. It's not the same country I left - it's less British now. If they put a war on and I was called up for some kind of national service, I would definitely be "4F" anyway.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 17:24
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
I'm proud to be Asian, says the Indian.
I'm proud to be Oriental, says the Chinese.
I'm proud to be African, says the Nigerian.
I'm proud to be Arabic, says the Moroccan.
I'm proud to be British, says the racist.
Perfect example of how political correctness has negatively affected society. The left is seeking out reasons to be offended and if you’re not a globalist, well to them the only other alternative is a racist.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 18:10
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Perfect example of a sweeping generalisation more like.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 19:05
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Some people are so up their butts about PC and a loss of identity that they are only ever chasing an imagined lost world where identity was clearer, simpler, more uniform. What a load of codswallop.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 22:09
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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flash8 do you actually read the drivel you post or just put nonsense together as a hobby to pass the time. Absolutely everything in your posts is complete and utter crap!.

Except maybe this bit....

...don't believe all you read online, most of it is garbage to fit a narrative to pursue an agenda...
Yup.
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