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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 23rd Dec 2018, 05:34
  #1861 (permalink)  
 
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GC ..eloquent..however .......

The problem is that out-of-touch and self-serving MPs are determined to thwart the expressed will of the electorate
So is your contention that only those MPs opposing Brexit are out-of-touch and self serving?

I only ask because I suspect we need to look at the financial and other interests of some of the very pro Brexit MPs before we can decide if democracy has truely been served by those at Westminster.




Last edited by wiggy; 23rd Dec 2018 at 07:24.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 06:27
  #1862 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Forgive me for repeating myself but I'm again moved to post the following;

We are not facing an economic crisis, rather we are facing a profound political crisis which Parliament has brought on itself and the country. The problem is that out-of-touch and self-serving MPs are determined to thwart the expressed will of the electorate and equally determined to bind our future to a declining and manifestly unpleasant body. I'm not suggesting that we adopt anything like the Second Amendment but it is not very far-fetched to suppose that the unrest and insurrection currently seen in France and elsewhere on the Continent might erupt on the streets of our green and could-again-be pleasant land. To potentially have been stitched up by the EU was to be expected; to be so treated by the purblind British governing class and its failure to understand this country and what drove it to depart from the EU in spite of all the risks and calumny this might invite, is unforgivable.

Sadly, the greatest casualty in all this mess is democracy. Over the centuries, this country has made inumerable sacrifices in defence of democracy and the people will not forgive an administration which squanders them. To institute the ridiculously-named "peoples' referendum" would be to negate the validity of the first referendum (in which, evidently, the "people" did not participate) and thus make a mockery of our so-called democratic processes. And if the establishment and Sproggers together with other knitted sandal-wearing contributors to this thread did not get what they wanted from this second bite at the cherry, for how long would they continue to fulminate against the "stupidity" of the majority? I think it very unfortunate that Saint Jeremy, for once getting something right, ruins it all by denying that he said it. The whole wretched business has descended into farce, dragged there by this hopeless government and abetted by an equally hopeless Parliament.

Of course it will do no good but I shall feel notionally better by copying the former Australian Prime Minister's observations kindly posted above. They derserve a second read by all of us.
First, congratulations on composing one the more grandiloquent posts on the topic of Brexit.

Your opening statement however suggests your analysis is flawed rhetoric presented and written in a style that disguises the true narrative, initially that is, because where this is exposed is when you recourse to the "knitted sandals wearers " definition, lentil eaters and tree huggers being a shade passť I suppose.

True, we are facing, well to be more accurate, we have long been established in, a full blown political crisis allied to which is the ever increasing reality of a self induced financial crisis.....shall we give a name, like the Met office does for storms perhaps ?...let's call it...... Storm Recession. Unless, that is, the many concerns being expressed by non politicians in a variety of sectors as to the economic ramifications of leaving a major trading bloc with some 40+years of development and integration are purely speculative fantasy on their part.

You also thoughtfully omitted to mention that, irrespective of personal political allegiances, the vote to leave has resulted, broadly speaking, in a unified condemnation of the result from all sides of the political divide.....apart from the extreme right who have their own agenda and who see this debacle as an opportunity to advance it.

You also seem to have missed the term "contingency planning ".....this appearing with ever increasing frequency in Gov't statements. The contingencies being planned for do include the potential for civil unrest you will be gratified to learn, they also include many others, such as logistics and health to name but two which will affect the whole of the UK population given our dependency on both.

That, and the contingencies we are aware of are those in the public domain. I would be far more interested to learn about those kept firmly away from public scrutiny given these tend to be far more unacceptable both politically and personally to the electorate.

Here's the UK's seasonal festivities aptly depicted.....

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...resent-cartoon

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 23rd Dec 2018 at 06:59.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 08:47
  #1863 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
How do you know what all the children want? 46.5 million is more than the total of those eligible to vote on the UK
Hussar wasn't talking about voters or voting.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 08:57
  #1864 (permalink)  
 
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It seems that Sallyann and myself are not the only ones suffering disillusionment with the main parties. Being reported that since Corbyn's pro Brexit statement support within the party for him is ebbing. He truly is a stupid man. A competent Labour leader should be 20 points ahead.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 09:08
  #1865 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
It seems that Sallyann and myself are not the only ones suffering disillusionment with the main parties.
From this distance the main parties looked tolerable, if boring, in the days of what with hindsight one might describe as the Heath-Wilson social democratic consensus government (the three day week seems mild compared to today's chaos).
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 09:26
  #1866 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
... someone who wants to ignore the biggest vote in UK history (for anything)
Translation: Most fraudulent campaign in modern UK political history.

I am a neutral observer.

In the past two years the only political figure who consistently speaks common sense is the leader of the SNP. That is exactly the kind of leadership needed in Westminster. It is clear that much of the proposed EU withdrawal catastrophe is built on policies put in place by the longest serving British Home secretary who accidently inherited a caretaker role as Prime Minister.

I mentioned a few pages back how systemic racism was forming in the Tory party long before the EU referendum. It emerged when they offered to build a prison on Jamaica to accommodate descendents of the Windrush generation housed in the UK prison population. This proposal, deportation by any other name, was Tory policy.

This shift to the extreme right (on Theresa May's watch at the Home Office) is no basis to strip people of their rights as EU citizens, irrespective of where they were born.

Another detail which stands out to the neutral observer is the special arrangement between the Tory party and the DUP which was put in place before the EU referendum. Now it is the issue of Northern Ireland upon which May's desperate plans for "the best deal" might succeed or fail.

Again, this is not a good basis on which to gamble the economy or the lives of future generations. Why the rush? Incredibly, it is those sames voices which cannot stand over their beliefs and take responsibility for their actions who shout down any attempt at calm debate. Villiers, Hoey and Fox.

This is a national emergency. Until opinion across the House return's to the centre ground all further proceedings on EU withdrawal should be suspended. A change of leadership in both main parties would give voters a fighting chance to determine their futures at a General Election in 2019. To continue on the present course, under the direction of a compromised Prime Minister, presiding over a divided party, pushing an undeliverable, near dead-heat outcome, from a fraudulent campaign, is no basis to jeopardize seven decades of relative peace and prosperity across Europe.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 09:31
  #1867 (permalink)  
 
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He truly is a stupid man. A competent Labour leader should be 20 points ahead.
This shows why Corbyn gets nil points from me as a leader. He is too much a man of principle and will not waver from his principles. This was admirable as an MP but he doesn't know the difference between pragmatism and dogmatism and surely pragmatism is essential for a leader (of anything). He reminds me of Wedgwood Benn. A friend and I were discussing the prospect of his leading the Labour party, many moons ago, and I mentioned how much a man of principle he was and would make a good leader. My friend observed that "Yes, he would make a good leader but he would lead us over the edge of a cliff if the thought it was the right course". And he had a point. Corbyn has the same blinkered view of the world.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 09:55
  #1868 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
This shows why Corbyn gets nil points from me as a leader. He is too much a man of principle and will not waver from his principles. This was admirable as an MP but he doesn't know the difference between pragmatism and dogmatism and surely pragmatism is essential for a leader (of anything). He reminds me of Wedgwood Benn. A friend and I were discussing the prospect of his leading the Labour party, many moons ago, and I mentioned how much a man of principle he was and would make a good leader. My friend observed that "Yes, he would make a good leader but he would lead us over the edge of a cliff if the thought it was the right course". And he had a point. Corbyn has the same blinkered view of the world.
They say you can tell a lot about a person by those they associate with. If you applied that logic to Corbyn, then people will never vote Labour in to office, whilst he is leader.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 09:59
  #1869 (permalink)  
 
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Probably by definition a source that will be deemed not valid/biased by more than a few here , but nevertheless:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...l-on-the-cards

From which...

Don’t panic! Don’t panic! You need not spoil your Christmas by worrying that Britain is walking the Brexit tightrope without a safety net because the defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, has announced that the armed forces are on standby.

Standing by to do what exactly? That is not clear. Penny Mordaunt, the international development secretary, is redeploying civil servants with expertise in disaster management to no-deal emergency planning. And Matt Hancock, the health secretary, has declared himself the world’s biggest purchaser of fridges so that the NHS has somewhere to keep stockpiles of critical medicines. He recently told colleagues that, in the event of a bad Brexit, he could not guarantee that people would not lose their lives. Choose Brexit – and you may die. They certainly didn’t put that on the side of their campaign bus.The obvious thing to say, but worth emphasising nevertheless, is that those who willed this Brexit nightmare on our country did not reveal that it would require such costly and alarming measures. They sold it as liberation day, not doomsday. Do you recall Boris Johnson and his gang telling us that leaving the EU could mean putting troops on the street, establishing a “war room” in the NHS, emergency airlifts of medicines, leafleting every household with advice on how to cope with food shortages and deploying those with experience of dealing with the aftermath of tornadoes, epidemics and tsunamis? No, me neither. It was supposed to be a piece of cherry-topped cake, not a humiliating national calamity.........
.....

A merry Christmas, everyone. I will not tempt fate by wishing you a peaceful and prosperous new year.
But never mind folks this just keep chanting "will of the people" and "democratic process" ...
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 10:08
  #1870 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Quite. No-one knows how many want to leave now. The only way to find out would be a referendum. They call it democracy, I believe.



Tell us again how many didn't vote to leave.

About a million less than than DID vote to leave, and THAT is Democracy as we've known it for generations - not this sudden new idea of Democracy which has been invented by the EU and its sheep during the past 30 years.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 10:18
  #1871 (permalink)  
 
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Tell us again how many didn't vote to leave.
Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
About a million less than than DID vote to leave, and THAT is Democracy as we've known it for generations - not this sudden new idea of Democracy which has been invented by the EU and its sheep during the past 30 years.
Your arithmetic isn't improved by using bold text, but if it suits you I will do the same.
.
The number of voters who didn't vote to leave was actually 29.1 million.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 10:22
  #1872 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
About a million less than than DID vote to leave, and THAT is Democracy as we've known it for generations - not this sudden new idea of Democracy which has been invented by the EU and its sheep during the past 30 years.
And how many millions (Plural) were denied a vote according to your idea of a functional democracy? Those most directly affected by losing their hard won right to live and work in another part of Europe. This younger generation, excluded and short-changed by their own political leaders, are the innocent victims of a process that was anything but democratic.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 10:46
  #1873 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
Its rather ironic to be lectured about democracy by someone who wants to ignore the biggest vote in UK history (for anything)
Bit emotive aren't you? I'm lecturing no one - trust me, you'd know all about it if you were on the end of a lecture from me.I see though, you're just another leaver running scared of public opinion but unwilling, disingenuously, to admit it. You know full well all the polls have leave in the bin as the full extent of its implications have become clear.

No one but no one would buy a house, discover the roof's falling in & the foundations have subsided and still carry on buying it. That's what leave is, we all know it & it entirely accounts for the whining over a second referendum. Frit, as Maggie used to say.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 10:50
  #1874 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Look, no offence, but if Britain was on track to become a third world country post Brexit we'd know about it by now. For example, where's the evidence the big GlobalCos are upping sticks and getting out? The big finance houses and the city of London, all looks pretty nailed on to me, unless all those skyscrapers are going up for no reason? Face it there is none, zero, no evidence whatsoever that Brexit is anything but a minor inconvenience to most organisations. In the long term I expect, truthfully, many see it as an opportunity and they are perfectly happy to see how things play out.
Unicorns, rainbows & sunlit uplands. There's none so blind as those who won't see.


"Face it there is none, zero, no evidence whatsoever that Brexit is anything but a minor inconvenience to most organisations."

That^^^ is a classic of the genre. As Previously, furnish me with a credible economic analysis that is neither two years old, nor Patrick bloody Minford that shows the UK benefiting economically from ANY form of Brexit & I'll happily change my mind. Over to you.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 10:50
  #1875 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Probably by definition a source that will be deemed not valid/biased by more than a few here , but nevertheless:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...l-on-the-cards

From which...


.....



But never mind folks this just keep chanting "will of the people" and "democratic process" ...
You'll excuse me for this opportunist moment, but, this piece appeared a few days ago and hence I thought it was only a matter of waiting for the usual "if it's in the Guardian, it must be true !" denouncements to appear ..sadly, they haven't.

Therefore I happily post this link.....

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ndustry-report
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 10:51
  #1876 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
"Face it there is none, zero, no evidence whatsoever that Brexit is anything but a minor inconvenience to most organisations."
One suspects that was written by someone who doesn't have budget responsibility for his organisation's expenditure on visa consultants. And we haven't even left yet.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 11:07
  #1877 (permalink)  
 
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How odd that Corbyn should be desperate to quit the EU for exactly the opposite reasons that the. ERG do. Corbyn sees them as a capitalist organisation that will do anything in it's power to prevent a true socialist ( i.e. Old style Soviet bloc government) Whereas the ERG see the EU as an impediment to an Indonesian style free market economy where the poor are exploited mercilessly with the full support of market forces.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 11:08
  #1878 (permalink)  
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A competent Labour leader should be 20 points ahead.
JC wasn’t elected based on his political competence - his suitability was demonstrated by having been left on the back benches for over 39 years by all sides of the party. He was elected despite his political competence because of his long time firmly held socialist views, including opposition to the EU.

It is hardly fair to criticise him, therefore, for remaining to true to his values. Better to criticise the naivety of those who voted for him and who are disappointed he has not done so.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 11:10
  #1879 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Your arithmetic isn't improved by using bold text, but if it suits you I will do the same.
.
The number of voters who didn't vote to leave was actually 29.1 million.

I was always useless at numbers - whether bold or not....

But if you want to claim those that didn't vote and add it them to the number that voted to Remain, then there's no reason for those that voted to Leave to add the same non-voters to their total of voters who voted to leave.

Which would mean, of course, more people voted to leave than to Remain.

Or maybe you know and have personally spoken to all these 10 million non-voters and know how they would have voted if they could have been arsed or allowed to vote.

Try another tack - which ever way Remainers try to cut the numbers incorporating non-voters is ( 1 ) hypothetical and (2) desparation and (3) to me, anyway, amusing
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 11:27
  #1880 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
... amusing
So too was this ... until fringe elements hijacked the result.

As I see and understand it, the decision to hold a referendum was pure, out and out politics by Cameron simply to avoid the Conservatives losing votes and seats to UKIP ...
I happen to agree with that view, but who is being quoted?

Bueller. Anyone? Bueller.
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