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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:36
  #1841 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
You would think if leavers are so certain their path is the right one & a majority of the country is behind it, they'd welcome a second referendum to settle the issue with open arms. Funny that to a man they resist the idea.
Do you really understand the implications of what you are proposing? It opens the floodgates and basically makes all future votes illegitimate the moment the polling stations close - or are you one of those people that only believe in second chances when you are on the losing side?
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:41
  #1842 (permalink)  
 
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You cannot undermine democracy by using more democracy. If you are a leaver, you could answer honestly on why you oppose the idea. I believe you knwo deep down it's a failed idea & public opinion has swung heavily against it, but some candour would be refreshing.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:48
  #1843 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
What have those issues got to do with it? You're still not talking about the same thing. By 2022 Brexit will have happened, and we will be suffering the results. Both parties will be blamed for getting us into it, not getting a better deal, etc. The minor parties will receive the protest votes, almost irrespective of what they offer.
Like most remainers you're assuming the wheels are going to fall off the bus post-Brexit, despite the fact there's no evidence whatsoever that is going to happen! I do agree the Maybot appears to have underplayed her hand though; it really is only our sense of fair play and common decency that is stopping us from turning the screw on Ireland, for example. Quite remarkable really, given some of the rubbish Varadkar has been spouting....
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:53
  #1844 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
You cannot undermine democracy by using more democracy. If you are a leaver, you could answer honestly on why you oppose the idea. I believe you knwo deep down it's a failed idea & public opinion has swung heavily against it, but some candour would be refreshing.
I think the full weight of the establishment is pitching in, in a last ditch attempt to avert Brexit, yes. For the sake of democracy I trully hope that is not allowed to happen, and I believe there's many, many others that share the same opinion (even some remainers).

I also think it's clear the "window of opportunity" for remainers is rapidly closing and there's now much more chance of a "No Deal" than any revoking of Art 50, for example. We'll see in the New Year, but I genuinely believe the game is nearly up for the remainers.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:55
  #1845 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Like most remainers you're assuming the wheels are going to fall off the bus post-Brexit, despite the fact there's no evidence whatsoever that is going to happen! I
Simply not true. The evidence is abundant & clear & as an observation, the leavers in here queue up one after another to assert there's no evidence Brexit will damage the country. It's simply not a credible position any longer & I'm bored rigid of the same line repeated over & over again in the hope it will magically become true.

Fun fact: Suppliers of fridge mountain required for NHS medicines stockpile because of No Deal Brexit, will themselves have to reapply for new UK quota system for control of fluorinated gases also because of No Deal Brexit according to this DEFRA notice. Meta af, eh?

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...u-with-no-deal
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 18:10
  #1846 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Simply not true. The evidence is abundant & clear & as an observation, the leavers in here queue up one after another to assert there's no evidence Brexit will damage the country. It's simply not a credible position any longer & I'm bored rigid of the same line repeated over & over again in the hope it will magically become true.

Fun fact: Suppliers of fridge mountain required for NHS medicines stockpile because of No Deal Brexit, will themselves have to reapply for new UK quota system for control of fluorinated gases also because of No Deal Brexit according to this DEFRA notice. Meta af, eh?

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...u-with-no-deal
Look, no offence, but if Britain was on track to become a third world country post Brexit we'd know about it by now. For example, where's the evidence the big GlobalCos are upping sticks and getting out? The big finance houses and the city of London, all looks pretty nailed on to me, unless all those skyscrapers are going up for no reason? Face it there is none, zero, no evidence whatsoever that Brexit is anything but a minor inconvenience to most organisations. In the long term I expect, truthfully, many see it as an opportunity and they are perfectly happy to see how things play out.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 18:19
  #1847 (permalink)  
 
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Cable remains a voice of sanity amidst the crazy mayhem that is Brexit.
Do you really think so? I think that he is ignoring the fact that 17.5 million people wish to leave the EU, over ride the referendum result and impose the wishes of the minority.
On 22 March, Cable announced that at an earlier meeting of European liberal parties he had garnered the signed agreements of eight European ALDE Prime Ministers demanding another referendum on the terms of Britain's exit from the European Union. Shortly after, however, in contradiction to Cable's announcement ALDE issued a statement denying that there had been any joint agreement about backing another referendum.

He lied.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 20:01
  #1848 (permalink)  
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Paddy Ashdown RIP.

A good and honest man and politician.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 20:57
  #1849 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
basically makes all future votes illegitimate the moment the polling stations close
That's how we've always done things - the next campaign starts when the previous polls close.

(Well, not quite, because elections can be won at lost at the count, so you really mean "when the previous result is announced" rather than "when the previous polls close". OK so in reality most of us do actually take the weekend off, after being up for 20 hours or whatever on the Thursday, before starting the next campaign.)
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 21:33
  #1850 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
Do you really think so? I think that he is ignoring the fact that 17.5 million people wish to leave the EU
Er no. You have absolutely no idea how many people wish to leave the EU.
17.5 million people wished to leave the EU two and a half years ago. That's half the length of a parliament. People have frequently changed their minds after such a period, otherwise we would never have had a change of government.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 21:37
  #1851 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Er no. You have absolutely no idea how many people wish to leave the EU.
17.5 million people wished to leave the EU two and a half years ago. That's half the length of a parliament. People have frequently changed their minds after such a period, otherwise we would never have had a change of government.

Sally's quite right, you know.

It's possible that it's 19.5 million who want to leave....

Last edited by Hussar 54; 22nd Dec 2018 at 21:53.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 21:46
  #1852 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
It possible that it's 19.5 million who want to leave....
... which would leave 46.5 million who don't ...
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 21:52
  #1853 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
... which would leave 46.5 million who don't ...

Tell us again how many actually voted to remain.

I thought it was about 30 million less than you claim.

But what's 30 million difference anyway to you and your mates.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 21:56
  #1854 (permalink)  
 
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I have a solution to the current stalemate!

Since the UK has had a referendum which resulted in the clear decision to leave the EU, it would be undemocratic to seek another referendum or to attempt to reverse the referendum result.

However, since the dispute now is over the terms of the UK leaving, it seems only reasonable and in the best democratic traditions of the EU for the EU to hold a referendum across all member states, bar the UK, to determine under what conditions we leave. There could be a range of options from hard Brexit to no trade barriers at all, with a couple of intermediate stages like the Noway and Canada+ options. Let the citizens of the EU decide.

We have had our say. The principles of democracy suggest the remaining citizens of the EU should have their voices heard too. The only issue is getting it all arranged and the results in before the 29th of March.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 22:09
  #1855 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
Sally's quite right, you know.

It's possible that it's 19.5 million who want to leave....
Quite. No-one knows how many want to leave now. The only way to find out would be a referendum. They call it democracy, I believe.

Tell us again how many actually voted to remain.
Tell us again how many didn't vote to leave.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 22:38
  #1856 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
Tell us again how many actually voted to remain.

I thought it was about 30 million less than you claim.

But what's 30 million difference anyway to you and your mates.
Your claim wasn't anything to do with voting, you didn't mention the word. I quote: "It possible that it's 19.5 million who want to leave....".

The rest is simple arithmetic.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 23:44
  #1857 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
... which would leave 46.5 million who don't ...
How do you know what all the children want? 46.5 million is more than the total of those eligible to vote on the UK
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 23:55
  #1858 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
You cannot undermine democracy by using more democracy. If you are a leaver, you could answer honestly on why you oppose the idea. I believe you knwo deep down it's a failed idea & public opinion has swung heavily against it, but some candour would be refreshing.
Its rather ironic to be lectured about democracy by someone who wants to ignore the biggest vote in UK history (for anything)
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 00:11
  #1859 (permalink)  
 
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Forgive me for repeating myself but I'm again moved to post the following;

We are not facing an economic crisis, rather we are facing a profound political crisis which Parliament has brought on itself and the country. The problem is that out-of-touch and self-serving MPs are determined to thwart the expressed will of the electorate and equally determined to bind our future to a declining and manifestly unpleasant body. I'm not suggesting that we adopt anything like the Second Amendment but it is not very far-fetched to suppose that the unrest and insurrection currently seen in France and elsewhere on the Continent might erupt on the streets of our green and could-again-be pleasant land. To potentially have been stitched up by the EU was to be expected; to be so treated by the purblind British governing class and its failure to understand this country and what drove it to depart from the EU in spite of all the risks and calumny this might invite, is unforgivable.

Sadly, the greatest casualty in all this mess is democracy. Over the centuries, this country has made inumerable sacrifices in defence of democracy and the people will not forgive an administration which squanders them. To institute the ridiculously-named "peoples' referendum" would be to negate the validity of the first referendum (in which, evidently, the "people" did not participate) and thus make a mockery of our so-called democratic processes. And if the establishment and Sproggers together with other knitted sandal-wearing contributors to this thread did not get what they wanted from this second bite at the cherry, for how long would they continue to fulminate against the "stupidity" of the majority? I think it very unfortunate that Saint Jeremy, for once getting something right, ruins it all by denying that he said it. The whole wretched business has descended into farce, dragged there by this hopeless government and abetted by an equally hopeless Parliament.

Of course it will do no good but I shall feel notionally better by copying the former Australian Prime Minister's observations kindly posted above. They derserve a second read by all of us.
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Old 23rd Dec 2018, 02:49
  #1860 (permalink)  
 
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GQ: Well said.
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