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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 22nd Dec 2018, 12:42
  #1821 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


True to an extent. But then where will our votes end up? If this is happening to any extent it could spell trouble for both parties.
I hope so! The two party state is failing - the old left/right divides no longer apply in most cases. What we need in this country is something akin to the 5-Star movement (Italy) that straddles the traditional party political lines. Generally, it's time for a change - I think many of us can see the status quo really only works for the few (the rest of us just work!). A truly sustainable economic model is what we need, versus the current crop's [email protected] like focus on GDP growth, at the expense of commonsense, the environment, people's sanity and wellbeing, etc...
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 12:47
  #1822 (permalink)  
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Provision of free NHS treatment is based on ordinary residence. It is not based on a person being a UK tax payer or NIC contributions, owning a property, being GP registered or even having an NHS number.
If you are a British citizen you have an automatic right of abode in the UK. If you have been living abroad you pass the ordinary residence test immediately on resettling in the UK and are entitled to free NHS care.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 13:29
  #1823 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


True to an extent. But then where will our votes end up? If this is happening to any extent it could spell trouble for both parties.
I can see LD and Greens picking up a lot of votes. Not out of any love for their policies but simply as a protest. As it stands, neither of the main parties will get a clear majority.
But if Corbyn drops out before 2022, I stand by my prediction of a Labour government.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 13:56
  #1824 (permalink)  
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JC would be 72 (?) at a 2022 election, older than Michael Foot. Maybe not as frail but still the wrong side of 70.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 13:58
  #1825 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I can see LD and Greens picking up a lot of votes. Not out of any love for their policies but simply as a protest. As it stands, neither of the main parties will get a clear majority.
But if Corbyn drops out before 2022, I stand by my prediction of a Labour government.
I heard today that Corbyn has said that if he becomes PM Brexit (the process) will carry on. One wonders if that would stand the harsh realities that the EU deal already agreed at EU / UK government level is the final negotiation on the matter that much as he might like to have proverbial cake and eat it that isn't going to happen. That would leave him with May's deal, no deal, cancel Brexit or referendum. To take May's deal would be a monumental climb down; he's set his face against no deal; put continuing Brexit into the Labour manifesto, so cancelling is out - and that would just leave a new referendum. The only chance of getting that option through would be an at least 6 month extension of Art. 50, which the EU might no wear.

Of course, stating that he won't stop Brexit puts him at odds with just about all the Trades Union movement, save for the RMT who only support Brexit because they think it will get them renationalisation of the railways. It won't endear him to the rump of his parliamentary party either.

Who would be the leader of either main party at the moment!?
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 14:02
  #1826 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
Provision of free NHS treatment is based on ordinary residence. It is not based on a person being a UK tax payer or NIC contributions, owning a property, being GP registered or even having an NHS number.
If you are a British citizen you have an automatic right of abode in the UK. If you have been living abroad you pass the ordinary residence test immediately on resettling in the UK and are entitled to free NHS care.

Yes funnily enough I'm already well aware of that but at last we got there and it looks like are actually agreed on the point that myself and at least one other was making; that the English expats in Spain you referred to earlier can't simply, as you put it "unretire" to get access to the NHS, to be legit they have to sell up and move back to the UK..

Glad that's sorted.....
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 14:07
  #1827 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I can see LD and Greens picking up a lot of votes. Not out of any love for their policies but simply as a protest. As it stands, neither of the main parties will get a clear majority.
But if Corbyn drops out before 2022, I stand by my prediction of a Labour government.
But we tested that theory at the last election and the Greens and LD got nowhere - not sure next time will be any different, regardless of how well (or badly) Brexit goes. Reason being, as I see it, the LDs are a political irrelevance with a leader from a different age who doesnt even want the job. OK, so they are pro-EU, but other than that does anybody know (or care) what they stand for anymore? The Greens, sadly, have lost their way under Caroline Lucas. They need to recognise the old order has changed and caring about the environment is no longer reserved for "lefties" and tree-huggers. As I said in a prior post somebody needs to come up with a sustainable set of economic policies that allow peoples standard of living to be broadly preserved, but without it costing us the earth (literally!). I'll keep waiting.....
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 14:10
  #1828 (permalink)  
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Of course you can. By definition, you simply move back to the UK. There is no need to sell up abroad, plenty of people have second homes. If you kept your overseas house and bought in the UK you'd have to pay the stamp duty surcharge, depending on the price but the whole exercise is entirely a financial one.
The moment you set foot in Britain, with the intention of remaining you confirm your ordinary residence. What could be tricky is to pretend that you had moved back to the UK when in fact you hadn't and I suspect that's where a lot of ex pats are when it comes to trying to obtain free NHS medical care. That's illegal of course, immoral and contrary to the public purse of the UK.
Only a dastardly .... (Francis Drake had a name for them I believe. PC rules apply today.) would do such a thing.
As a final confirmation that you had resumed residence in the UK, all you would have to do is to contact your local HMRC office and effectively cancel your P85 which, as a conscientious tax payer, you'd filed when you left.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 14:21
  #1829 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Yes funnily enough I'm already well aware of that but at last we got there and it looks like are actually agreed on the point that myself and at least one other was making; that the English expats in Spain you referred to earlier can't simply, as you put it "unretire" to get access to the NHS, to be legit they have to sell up and move back to the UK..

Glad that's sorted.....
How does this apply to people who maintain residences in both say Spain and the UK? I know one or two couples who do this.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 14:27
  #1830 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
But we tested that theory at the last election and the Greens and LD got nowhere - not sure next time will be any different, regardless of how well (or badly) Brexit goes. Reason being, as I see it, the LDs are a political irrelevance with a leader from a different age who doesnt even want the job. OK, so they are pro-EU, but other than that does anybody know (or care) what they stand for anymore? The Greens, sadly, have lost their way under Caroline Lucas. They need to recognise the old order has changed and caring about the environment is no longer reserved for "lefties" and tree-huggers. As I said in a prior post somebody needs to come up with a sustainable set of economic policies that allow peoples standard of living to be broadly preserved, but without it costing us the earth (literally!). I'll keep waiting.....
But things have moved on a long way since the last election. At that time people were still being promised by both parties that they could get a good Brexit deal, and voters wanted to believe them. Those lies have now been exposed and both parties are in disarray.

And as I said, the minor parties don't need attractive policies. They just need a party organisation and a brand that can be recognised on the ballot paper as 'none of the above'.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 14:49
  #1831 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
But things have moved on a long way since the last election. At that time people were still being promised by both parties that they could get a good Brexit deal, and voters wanted to believe them. Those lies have now been exposed and both parties are in disarray.

And as I said, the minor parties don't need attractive policies. They just need a party organisation and a brand that can be recognised on the ballot paper as 'none of the above'.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I dont see either the LDs or Greens making significant headway at the next GE unless they come up with some distinctive and sensible policies on the key issues. Simply promising a PeoplesVote or EURef2 is just not going to cut it with a majority of the electorate that either just wanted to leave (regardless of the deal) or aren't that bothered either way...
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 14:59
  #1832 (permalink)  
 
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Greens - No chance, are and would remain a wasted vote party. Not of this world on their policies. LD's however are a slightly different prospect. Cable remains a voice of sanity amidst the crazy mayhem that is Brexit. It's certainly where my vote goes next time unless Corbyn is defenestrated, and I don't see that coming because they are changing all the party rules to prevent any change.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 15:32
  #1833 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Yes, but it happens NOW whilst we are IN the EU - so what's the point being made, re Brexit? Or am I being slow on the uptake (wouldn't be the first time)?
Somebody was claiming that a pensioner living in Spain who found their access to Spanish medical care disappeared would be able to come back to the UK and use the NHS. I was correcting them - that can't even be done now, there's no reason to suppose it'll get easier after #brexit.

So, if #brexit causes their access to Spanish medical care to disappear they'd better have lots of money saved up.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 16:21
  #1834 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Simply promising a PeoplesVote or EURef2 is just not going to cut it with a majority of the electorate that either just wanted to leave (regardless of the deal) or aren't that bothered either way...
What have those issues got to do with it? You're still not talking about the same thing. By 2022 Brexit will have happened, and we will be suffering the results. Both parties will be blamed for getting us into it, not getting a better deal, etc. The minor parties will receive the protest votes, almost irrespective of what they offer.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 16:22
  #1835 (permalink)  
 
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The harsh reality of Brexit is that for the vast majority of people in the UK and EU life will carry on exactly as before. Some prices in the shops might rise, some might fall, no change there. An extra form or two to fill in when booking a holiday, an extra charge for a visa. Cheaper than the local airport tax you have to pay now.

This time next year with Brexit done and dusted, I bet you won't be able to tell the difference!
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 16:26
  #1836 (permalink)  
 
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You would think if leavers are so certain their path is the right one & a majority of the country is behind it, they'd welcome a second referendum to settle the issue with open arms. Funny that to a man they resist the idea.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 16:35
  #1837 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
You would think if leavers are so certain their path is the right one & a majority of the country is behind it, they'd welcome a second referendum to settle the issue with open arms. Funny that to a man they resist the idea.
You'd also think that they'd be able to tell us one - just one! - benefit to be gained from #brexit, but none of them ever has.

(There is one actual benefit, which I've spotted but no leave-voter agrees with me is a benefit, which is the collapse in car sales, which will result in improved health from the additional walking and cycling done by those who can no longer afford cars.)
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:02
  #1838 (permalink)  
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Actually I think few people can afford cars today. Most people seem to using creative finance deals. Come Brexit I am sure car manufacturers will still want to produce cars and dealers to sell them.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:24
  #1839 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
You'd also think that they'd be able to tell us one - just one! - benefit to be gained from #brexit, but none of them ever has.

(There is one actual benefit, which I've spotted but no leave-voter agrees with me is a benefit, which is the collapse in car sales, which will result in improved health from the additional walking and cycling done by those who can no longer afford cars.)
You make a good point, a little less consumption overall should be the result, so fewer people (or at least a little slower increase), less strain on public services, less strain on housing stock, no need to build the OxMkCam Expressway and the 1m extra houses to go with it, no need to build on the greenbelt, maybe a bit less congestion on the roads/motorways from a few less HGVs. Or do you think it's best all round if we just keep growing for growth's sake?
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 17:31
  #1840 (permalink)  
 
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"hear hear" sounds good to me. That is a benefit.
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