Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 20th Dec 2018, 16:24
  #1761 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
QED. You pick & choose the narrow range of options that suit your view. I point at multiple sources that aren't perished into the bargain. It's a special kind of leaver who brings up, now, today, anything pre-referendum & sits back, sucks their teeth & says Sprogget, you're not taking me seriously.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 16:56
  #1762 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: one side of la Manche
Posts: 129
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
QED. You pick & choose the narrow range of options that suit your view. I point at multiple sources that aren't perished into the bargain. It's a special kind of leaver who brings up, now, today, anything pre-referendum & sits back, sucks their teeth & says Sprogget, you're not taking me seriously.
One could rewrite that to say that you too pick a narrow range of options that suits your pov. I only introduced the pre-referendum forecasts as an example of where forecasts have been wide of the mark.

You are right though to suggest that I support leaving the EU. If they are available you might like to check out my contributions to the other hamster wheel to see my pedigree. And I suppose, replies like yours above were what drove me away from the debate.

Regards
All the best for the weekend to come.
Batco
BATCO is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 17:52
  #1763 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by BATCO View Post
And I suppose, replies like yours above were what drove me away from the debate.
That's a shame, you could stay & debate your position, but if it's as untenable as you suggest, then probably for the best.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 18:10
  #1764 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 453
BATCO, unfortunately before the referendum and particularly since the result, there are those within the media, forums, politics, business, and the EU management team that display what on the face of it is an arrogance and disdain towards those who hold views that differ from theirs.
Unfortunate traits for people who are trying to convince others of the errors of their decisions, the real affect which is to harden peoples views on the subject under debate and/or drive them away from bothering to attempt to debate with them, this is then jumped on as accepting defeat, or having nothing valid to contribute, rather than be won over by them and change their minds.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 18:19
  #1765 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Changing minds is not the game here. Those willing to bat this subject back & forth in this environment are ime pretty fixed in their thinking. So setting aside the salty tone, I'm perfectly content to point out for example that relying on Minford et al is skating on thin ice while you respond with accusations of arrogance. If you lack the chops to play the ball, that only leaves the man really & that in itself speaks volumes.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 18:46
  #1766 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Changing minds is not the game here. Those willing to bat this subject back & forth in this environment are ime pretty fixed in their thinking. So setting aside the salty tone, I'm perfectly content to point out for example that relying on Minford et al is skating on thin ice while you respond with accusations of arrogance. If you lack the chops to play the ball, that only leaves the man really & that in itself speaks volumes.
Oh sorry, it is not as if I am the only one who made comments that could also be construed as playing the man, a couple of examples:
The logic of that is a perfect summation of the madness of the leave mind.

but it's entirely in keeping with the worst Brextremist m.o. of always blaming someone else for their actions.
I have said my opinion on various attitudes and received similar back, but not worth continuing as it is obviously not going to change any ones views, which is I know why it is titled a hamsterwheel.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 20:46
  #1767 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: one side of la Manche
Posts: 129
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
That's a shame, you could stay & debate your position,
Yes, but our view of debate seems to be at variance.

Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
but if it's as untenable as you suggest, ......
There you go again putting words in other people's mouths. It is axiomatic in making my case that I do not believe my position untenable.

Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Changing minds is not the game here.
Why not? If the argument is sufficiently persuasive I will change my mind.

Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Those willing to bat this subject back & forth in this environment are ime pretty fixed in their thinking.
So it would seem.

Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
... I'm perfectly content to point out for example that relying on Minford et al is skating on thin ice
They are indeed. But so are those who do not question the credibility of, for example, the treasury, OBR and IFS.

Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
If you lack the chops to play the ball, that only leaves the man really & that in itself speaks volumes.
Quite content with my 'chops' thank you. In fact I believe that I have (excepting a few moments of exasperation with the likes of Pace and now you) tried to play the ball in this debate.

And so I bid you farewell.

Regards
Batco
BATCO is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 21:38
  #1768 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Nice quoting! A labour of love. So, in summary, we can reasonably conclude that between you & exrigger, fairly perfumed manners, which I admit I could do with,a little more of but anyhow, whatever, fail to conceal the same repeated reliance on well worn in your case, forecasts from the same few sources & in exriggers, a pack of economists, actually, just the one - Patrick Minford whose central thesis is to sacrifice all manufacturing on the altar of tariffs.

It may be axiomatic that you believe in your point of view, I'd call that a truism by definition for anyone who posts. Nonetheless, I have asked repeatedly for a positive, believable analysis of a no deal exit & in return, I have received nothing credible to anyone reasonably following the debate but a good few chunks of sly ad hom. A more cynical man might suggest that's deflection borne of the absence of a supportive answer. And that is the sole point. There is no Brexit that doesn't make us poorer. No one can offer it because it doesn't exist. The real question is why would anyone, armed with the knowledge we know possess support it?

Ho hum, sticks & stones etc.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 21:51
  #1769 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dundee
Posts: 6
Difficult to counter such a persuasive argument.

weemonkey is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 22:10
  #1770 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Delta of Venus
Posts: 389
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Nice quoting! A labour of love. So, in summary, we can reasonably conclude that between you & exrigger, fairly perfumed manners, which I admit I could do with,a little more of but anyhow, whatever, fail to conceal the same repeated reliance on well worn in your case, forecasts from the same few sources & in exriggers, a pack of economists, actually, just the one - Patrick Minford whose central thesis is to sacrifice all manufacturing on the altar of tariffs.

It may be axiomatic that you believe in your point of view, I'd call that a truism by definition for anyone who posts. Nonetheless, I have asked repeatedly for a positive, believable analysis of a no deal exit & in return, I have received nothing credible to anyone reasonably following the debate but a good few chunks of sly ad hom. A more cynical man might suggest that's deflection borne of the absence of a supportive answer. And that is the sole point. There is no Brexit that doesn't make us poorer. No one can offer it because it doesn't exist. The real question is why would anyone, armed with the knowledge we know possess support it?

Ho hum, sticks & stones etc.
BJ, Rees-Fogg & Farang couldn't supply any tangible facts during the referendum campaign, or since. So it's a bit much to ask the obfuscating intellectual peacocks here to supply some, although I do very much enjoy their razor sharp rhetoric and keyboard warrior skills. Stuff like that "built the Impire don'tcha know?"
Private jet is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 00:21
  #1771 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
Firstly, you don't actually know for a fact that the economy will be thrown in the bin, and the negotiations are currently tortuous as we appear to have no leverage at this time, so what makes you think they will continue in that vein after leaving under WTO rules, you might be surprised and find that leaving under WTO rules will be the catalyst to break the deadlock, but then I know no more than you do, but my speculation is as valid as yours is..
Sadly, I fear Sprogget's "surprise" is a vain hope. Exposing him to views not in accord with his own rigid interpretation of the Remain orthodoxy might generate a condition similar to that of Dracula being zapped by daylight.
Gipsy Queen is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 04:22
  #1772 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 58
I am quite frankly amazed that people continue to argue Brexit from an economic standpoint, Surely that should be dead now. What is left is this. Those of us who still desire that course of action need to accept that there will be a cost, the only real debate is how heavy that cost will be and whether what we will gain will justify it.

I still would argue that my position as a non voter at the referendum was the only logical one. There were too many X's in the equation in June 2016 to permit a solution. My personal view always was that, given that sovereignty issues and who makes our laws are matters of supreme indifference to me, it comes down quite simply to cash. I was prepared to consider the Brexiteer argument that we would be better outside the EU. We now have the information I need to make my decision and I demand my vote.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 06:35
  #1773 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Exposing him to views not in accord with his own rigid interpretation of the Remain orthodoxy might generate a condition similar to that of Dracula being zapped by daylight.
Actually, it's the fruition of those that keeps me, like Dracula, awake at night!
Sprogget is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 09:00
  #1774 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 71
Posts: 655
Following the litany of unfounded allegations of anti-semitism by Corbyn, the Conservative party have now pronounced on Boris Johnson's comments on Muslim women's wearing of full face veils etc. As expected, their inquiry found him to be totally guiltless.
Well I never!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46641106
KelvinD is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 09:36
  #1775 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 7,046
Women who wear veils have a choice in the matter. Mrs May, if she is stupid, has no choice in that matter. Boris Johnson mocks that which could be changed, Jeremy Corbyn mocks the afflicted.
In addition to that, how many times has the sometimes sanctimonious Corbyn made political capital out of the statement 'I don't do abuse"?
Oh yes he does!
Boris, an ex member of the Bullingdon Club, has behaved like a gentleman in comparison.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 09:51
  #1776 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 75
Posts: 1,462
given that sovereignty issues and who makes our laws are matters of supreme indifference to me
Then you most certainly don't deserve a vote.
jindabyne is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 10:09
  #1777 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 58
I could argue with at least as much justification that those deciding to leave on those criteria don't deserve a vote. The fact that I don't says it all about the difference of our positions. Mine is democratic, yours is not.

I was having the Brexit discussion the other day with a leaver. I pointed out the delicacy of the NI situation. His response was " Let the Republic have the whole of Ireland". Good solution?
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 10:14
  #1778 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,722
KelvinD,

It was an idependent inquiry lead by an independent QC and High Court Judge, Naomi Ellenbogen, who has also been engaged by the BBC and is not a party member.

Rather different to the way the Labour Party has handled things.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/la...omi-ellenbogen

Naomi Ellenbogen QC appointed Deputy High Court Judge
ORAC is online now  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 10:21
  #1779 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
2016: No downside to Brexit.
2017: Easiest deal in history!
2018: We can leave with do deal and negotiate a FTA during the transition.
2019: Vary your diet to avoid starvation!

Sprogget is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 10:38
  #1780 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: firmly on dry land
Age: 76
Posts: 1,538
And that last piece of advice is a nonsense. If the food is available why change? If the food is not available you will be forced to change.
Wader2 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.