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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 20th Dec 2018, 04:59
  #1721 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Corbyn had been listening to May's silly pantomime diatribe that was performed straight in his face, goading him.
His response was naturally directed straight back to her and to no one else.
In those circumstances it would have been totally illogical for him to say "people".
Yep, irrespective of the political turmoil and lack of anything remotely resembling clarity, it's nice to see such detailed analysis being directed at one comment.....makes the front cover of the current "Private Eye " look,, erm remarkably prescient actually.

And besides, such panto trivia helps divert attention away from other minor domestic issues, such as Amber now thoughtfully saying Universal Credit may take just a bit longer to roll out because she's suddenly found her version of a social conscience .....and is astute enough to realise if it can be delayed for a bit longer, she won't be in Gov't to take the blame and the inevitable "it's all Labours fault ! " refrain can be regurgitated thereafter.....and there's also the inconvenient matter of the Immigration Bill which isn't exactly going to plan either.

Here's Steve Bell.....

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...erings-cartoon
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 06:53
  #1722 (permalink)  
 
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So what if the beardy bloke called May a stupid woman? She is one. He would have been telling the truth!
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 07:04
  #1723 (permalink)  
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So what if the beardy bloke called May a stupid woman? She is one. He would have been telling the truth!
It’s the context and history of the use of silly/stupid woman in the HoC, and especially in the perceived partiality of the Speaker.





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Old 20th Dec 2018, 07:05
  #1724 (permalink)  
 
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Why lie about it then?
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 07:08
  #1725 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by iceman50 View Post
Sprogget


Pity you cannot accept the result.
You're gong to have to elaborate on that.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 07:16
  #1726 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Corbyn had been listening to May's silly pantomime diatribe that was performed straight in his face, goading him.
His response was naturally directed straight back to her and to no one else.
In those circumstances it would have been totally illogical for him to say "people".
I was initially sure he had said "woman" . On re watching it on Newsnight I thought it was "people". Now the point about that is that I wouldn't, were I on a jury, convict. So it's not beyond reasonable doubt and on that basis, as much as I dislike Corbyn and want to see him gone, I think in unreasonable to make the allegation. Of course it's a good distraction from the Brexit travails of our " government".
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 07:42
  #1727 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


I was initially sure he had said "woman" . On re watching it on Newsnight I thought it was "people". Now the point about that is that I wouldn't, were I on a jury, convict. So it's not beyond reasonable doubt and on that basis, as much as I dislike Corbyn and want to see him gone, I think in unreasonable to make the allegation. Of course it's a good distraction from the Brexit travails of our " government".
If the test is ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ then I agree he should not be convicted.

But if the test is ‘on the balance of probabilities’ then I go with the complainants.

PMQs is a personal verbal battle between the PM and Corbyn. Corbyn was rattled and by May and reacted in a way that we observe people react hundreds of times. It looks to me like he said Stupid Woman. That he regards May as a Stupid Woman is clear for all to see. Seems much more likely that he said Stupid Woman and not Stupid People. And he left the Chamber. Why? It’s reasonable to assume that he went to seek advice from his SpinDoctor perhaps to review the footage and come up with a plan.

On balance, then, I don’t think it was unreasonable for him to be accused of calling the PM a Stupid Woman.

SPROGGET

Be careful about using ‘Rubbish’ people can get upset.

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Old 20th Dec 2018, 07:54
  #1728 (permalink)  
 
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If we are to leave the EU I'd much prefer a No Deal. It'll be a nightmare for a period of time but compared with endless tied negotiations with the back-stop which could go on for years., we would have a complete set of bargaining chips and be able to negotiate a trade deal on a more equal footing with the EU. And we would be able to form our own trade deals and implement them straight away. Not to mention the £39B, although I accept that much of this sum will be used to facilitate no deal.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:08
  #1729 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


I was initially sure he had said "woman" . On re watching it on Newsnight I thought it was "people". Now the point about that is that I wouldn't, were I on a jury, convict. So it's not beyond reasonable doubt and on that basis, as much as I dislike Corbyn and want to see him gone, I think in unreasonable to make the allegation. Of course it's a good distraction from the Brexit travails of our " government".
You can believe what you want, but the experts nail it.

From Sky News...


But, amid a furious political row, lip-readers from 121 Captions have studied the footage of Mr Corbyn and disagreed with the politician's explanation.

The Labour leader tells MPs he had instead referred to "stupid people" during "pantomime" exchanges in the House of Commons.

Among their comments, they told Sky News:

The mouth shows the shape of "Wo" and clearly ends with man. It does not look like "people" at all
Lips moving forward for "W" is very different from the plosive "P" shape in people
And, you have to look at the whole phrase anyway. It's clearly "woman" and what word would use a "P"? "Poman" makes no sense
Also, look at the first syllable. "Woman" equals "O" and "people" equals "EE"
The key thing here is the "W" in woman is so easy to see
Tina Lannin is the director and founder of 121 Captions who previously worked as an expert witness forensic lip reader and a lip-reading teacher.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:12
  #1730 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yotty View Post
If we are to leave the EU I'd much prefer a No Deal. It'll be a nightmare for a period of time but compared with endless tied negotiations with the back-stop which could go on for years., we would have a complete set of bargaining chips and be able to negotiate a trade deal on a more equal footing with the EU. And we would be able to form our own trade deals and implement them straight away. Not to mention the £39B, although I accept that much of this sum will be used to facilitate no deal.

The logic of that is a perfect summation of the madness of the leave mind. The idea that we should throw the economy in the bin in order to leverage a set of tortuous negotiations to achieve a deal worse than we have today with the EU is staggering. And what makes you think crashing out won't lead to years & years of negotiations with the EU let alone the rest of the world?
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:17
  #1731 (permalink)  
 
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:20
  #1732 (permalink)  
 
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JCB seems to manage with WTO. See todays Telegraph letters page.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:41
  #1733 (permalink)  
 
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Who gives a flying about an unelectable leader of the opposition. There are more immediate concerns with Britons staring down the barrel of significant cost of living increases in exchange for a reduced standard of living. What is going on deep down in the British psyche? This must be the worst case of mass hypnosis since Reverand Moon conducted a mass wedding in a football stadium back in the 90's.

It's worth revisiting the main architect for this disaster. His rap sheet speaks for itself. Cameron appointed an ex- News of The World hack as his director of communications. That should have tripped a red flag. Scrapping the fixed wing maritime patrol and STOVL ground attack fleets to "re-balance" Britain's defence capability was another red flag. He then turned his attention to social mobility and concluded the best possible start in life was to commit graduates to debts that could take years to pay down. Another hidden gem from the Cameron years which ties in with May's open contempt for immigrants - he was the first British Prime Minister to visit Jamaica and whilst there, offered to build a new prison to accomodate Jamaican inmates currently in the UK system. That was his mission. His track record on protecting the most vulnerable in society is shocking, although to his credit, he managed to allocate extra funding for a family living on benefits by increasing the Sovereign Grant. This theme of genuflecting to Royal families on behalf of the nation reached peak hypocrisy when the Union flag was lowered as a mark of respect for a Saudi King. He recalled Parliament to eulogize a former Tory leader, then granted her a State funeral in all but name. All on the taxpayer of course. The final irony. He was campaigning for the remain vote in Gibraltar (already solid remain territory) when that visit had to be cancelled following the murder of an opposition MP.

Roll on the New Year. If it took just 6 months to plan and execute the D-Day landings, then 3 months should be sufficient time for sensible MP's from all sides of the House to put the brakes on a Tory administration that is totally out of control.

A country descended into chaos and now confronted with hardships that will last for generations. That is the Cameron legacy.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:44
  #1734 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
The logic of that is a perfect summation of the madness of the leave mind. The idea that we should throw the economy in the bin in order to leverage a set of tortuous negotiations to achieve a deal worse than we have today with the EU is staggering. And what makes you think crashing out won't lead to years & years of negotiations with the EU let alone the rest of the world?
Firstly, you don't actually know for a fact that the economy will be thrown in the bin, and the negotiations are currently tortuous as we appear to have no leverage at this time, so what makes you think they will continue in that vein after leaving under WTO rules, you might be surprised and find that leaving under WTO rules will be the catalyst to break the deadlock, but then I know no more than you do, but my speculation is as valid as yours is.

What makes you think that leaving the EU and continuing trade under WTO rules will lead to years and years of negotiations with the EU and rest of the world, what facts have you that support that premise, based on what historical precedence.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:52
  #1735 (permalink)  
 
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Well I guess it's true then. You have had enough of experts.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 08:59
  #1736 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
Firstly, you don't actually know for a fact that the economy will be thrown in the bin, and the negotiations are currently tortuous as we appear to have no leverage at this time, so what makes you think they will continue in that vein after leaving under WTO rules, you might be surprised and find that leaving under WTO rules will be the catalyst to break the deadlock, but then I know no more than you do, but my speculation is as valid as yours is.

What makes you think that leaving the EU and continuing trade under WTO rules will lead to years and years of negotiations with the EU and rest of the world, what facts have you that support that premise, based on what historical precedence.
I would have thought the accepted fact (it is accepted isn't it?) that the EU exports more to the UK than in the opposite direction would concentrate minds on the mainland EU when it came to cross trade arrangements, but I readily accept there are more spheres involved than pure trade in physical goods.

We get a fair bit on the television news about how any form of Brexit is going to affect British industry but not so much in the other direction. We can all see the point of course. But I think it would be informative see reports on how Calais is preparing for a no-deal Brexit for example. Perhaps a TV reporter could pop into a local Tesco, look at the back of a few bottles of EU originated wine then go to the producer and ask how they think a no-deal Brexit will affect them. There are two sides to this coin but we very rarely see the EU face of the coin in any practical sense.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:03
  #1737 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
The logic of that is a perfect summation of the madness of the leave mind. The idea that we should throw the economy in the bin in order to leverage a set of tortuous negotiations to achieve a deal worse than we have today with the EU is staggering. And what makes you think crashing out won't lead to years & years of negotiations with the EU let alone the rest of the world?
Sprogget, I trust you read the first 7 words of my post!
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:05
  #1738 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46626967

Brexit referendum 'plausible' if MPs can't decide - Amber Rudd

Why? MP's are there as our elected representatives to make / implement decisions based on the wishes of their electorate, If they disagree with it or not, that is not their job, their job is to carry out those wishes, hence why we had a referendum in the first place and the decision was made to leave, something they have been given to implement.. If they cannot decide themselves then what is the point of having a parliament in the first place, we could hold a referendum for everything. Why they cannot simply get on with it instead of running their own power grabbing agenda over it is beyond me, and the latest rubbish about calling names is deplorable, I can think of some better words to call both parties..
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:07
  #1739 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Well I guess it's true then. You have had enough of experts.
Apologies, I see where you are coming from now, all the experts who are speculating on the outcome and are correct in their assumptions are remain and there are none who can hold to that same level of astuteness and outlook on the exit side, or is it they are just outnumbered.
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Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:13
  #1740 (permalink)  
 
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There aren't the two sides to this coin in quite the way you make out. In fact you are repeating the David Davis trope that the EU will bend over backwards because they need to sell us BMW's. The actual reality is they are part of a trading bloc comprising 450m people & 27 countries & we are one island nation of 70m people. If you take BMW as a specific example, exports to the UK represented 9.7% of total sales in 2017. That's a hit if it were to disappear, which it won't in any meaningful sense but what you are doing with no deal is erecting a barrier to trade that doesn't exist today.

You would be creating serious delays at ports, slapping tariffs on goods & in the process strangling trade between the markets. BMW will look at this & make cold headed commercial decisions about where to focus trade efforts & it won't be here for the reasons outlined above. Why would they? What possible incentive is there to throw billions of euros at an uncompetitive market when you could simply open up in China & recoup your revenue there?

Repeat this with hundreds of thousands of companies & you have a decent picture of the near future in a no deal outcome. And of you think politicians won't sanction this, think again. Merkel imposed severe trading sanctions on Russia in the wake of the annexation of Crimea in the face of opposition from German industry. The idea that politicians will kow tow to trade is erroneous.
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