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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 15th Dec 2018, 13:06
  #1461 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
Personally I don't necessarily disagree with political union - eventually. My objection is that the EU is trying to run towards that destination rather than walking, being perceived as trying to bulldoze people rather than getting them to journey along that road at a sedate pace which would be acceptable to all EU nationals of any age, and no doubt age is an issue here.
Absolutely. I don't object at a fundamental level to political union or a federal Europe. I do object to the way we're being manoeuvred into it by stealth without ever having been asked if that's what we want or how we would like such a Europe to look.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 13:28
  #1462 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Two world wars started within Europe, primarily centered around Germany. It is the free travel and free trade between the EU countries that has made further such wars unthinkable.
Nato was designed to defend against the USSR and has succeeded in that It has not deployed to stop Germany marching again.
No need for Germany to march again, after defeating it twice, the EU has handed Europe to it on a plate.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 13:40
  #1463 (permalink)  
 
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I couldn't see any advantage of joining the Common Market in 1974. As far as I was concerned the Continent would destroy the British car manufacturing business.
I only voted to join, like many others, because Tony Benn was against it.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 13:44
  #1464 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Now of course Germany is reunited, and France is a nuclear power. But the real reason that Germany and France aren't fighting again over their border is that they no longer have a border! Long may that continue.
Talking to a kid in a pub in Kosovo. His solution to the Kosovo problem was that once Kosovo and Albania and Serbia had all joined the EU these little local squabbles would become irrelevant and evaporate, and people in his parts of the world would just stop killing each other because there wouldn't be any point to it any more.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 13:49
  #1465 (permalink)  
 
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His solution to the Kosovo problem was that once Kosovo and Albania and Serbia had all joined the EU these little local squabbles would become irrelevant and evaporate,
They used to be called Yugoslavia.........Then they all separated.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 14:03
  #1466 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
No need for Germany to march again, after defeating it twice, the EU has handed Europe to it on a plate.
Do I detect more than a whiff of jealousy in that remark.

Had the UK, under Churchill, not decided to sit on the sidelines during the early days of the European Coal and Steel community, and properly engaged with the 6 nations at that time, the UK would have been involved in making the rules, and by now may well be at the heart of what is now the EU. Sadly, as normal these days, we sat on the sidelines, and the rest is, I'm afraid, history.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 15:24
  #1467 (permalink)  
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PaxBritannia, problem with your keyboard, no punctuation marks?
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 15:36
  #1468 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
No need for Germany to march again, after defeating it twice, the EU has handed Europe to it on a plate.

but only if the US carries the load again, course maybe Russia would help out on German side, as she needs Germany as a buffer to the EU
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 15:52
  #1469 (permalink)  
 
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Amazing how many posters hogging this topic who say "I didn't vote in the Referendum" for whatever "reason" but who now think they have the right to air their "knowledge" when they didn't make the effort 2 years ago?
Carry on swinging your handbags
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 15:55
  #1470 (permalink)  
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It must theoretically sometimes be slightly humbling for certain elements of the population when reflecting on how much better Europeans speak English than the English speak European.
An example will suffice in the previously mentioned phrase Pax Britannia. Pax is the Latin for peace, as everyone knows. In the fore mentioned example it functions as a noun and therefore must, in the context, be qualified by an adjective. Britannia is a noun and therefore will not do as a qualifier for Pax. The adjective required is Britannica, giving rise to the correct expression, Pax Britannica.
Quite simple really when you've grown up in the Italian Tyrol speaking Latin before dawn.
On to the really theoretical then. The last two world wars would arguably never have been won without very considerable help from USA; I have no intention of entering into an argument about that fact. So what I wonder concerns this speculative hypothesis, had El Trumpo adopted the same pro British (anti certain non specifiable European nation) attitude as either Woodrow Wilson or Franklin Delano Roosevelt and thus flooded Britain with financial aid and American economic muscle, would the combined might of the British and American economies have been sufficient to see off the threat from the evil empire of Berlaymont?
I suppose that the present US president doesn't see the EU for what it originally was, a French foil to post war American economic might but I would suggest that the White House has missed a great opportunity here. A full financial alliance with Britain, leading to the economic route of the European economy as a whole and the European Central Bank in particular, would have worked greatly to the long term advantage of the United States, deflating an economic enemy while preserving the crumbling remains of its oldest friend and ally.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 18:50
  #1471 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Very sad, but I have to ask the obvious question - why is the child's father not paying for his son's welfare?
I have to agree and why would you be having a second child when you haven't the means to support one?
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 21:31
  #1472 (permalink)  

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"Talking to a kid in a pub in Kosovo. His solution to the Kosovo problem was that once Kosovo and Albania and Serbia had all joined the EU these little local squabbles would become irrelevant and evaporate, and people in his parts of the world would just stop killing each other because there wouldn't be any point to it any more."

They used to be the Austro-Hungarian Empire.........Then they all separated.

Mac
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 21:44
  #1473 (permalink)  

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"Had the UK, under Churchill, not decided to sit on the sidelines during the early days of the European Coal and Steel community, and properly engaged with the 6 nations at that time, the UK would have been involved in making the rules, and by now may well be at the heart of what is now the EU."

Quite correct. But Britain was still drifting in a haze of Empire and Commonwealth and Churchill's "special relationship" with the USA while struggling with rationing at home.*

Mac

* ended at midnight on 4 July 1954
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 21:46
  #1474 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
My daughter, a staunch remainer and a lawyer, tells of a friend, a Belgium lawyer, who broke a leg in a cycling accident. That person travelled to London, stayed in a hotel, presented herself to A&E, and got it fixed. That was cheaper than getting it sorted in Belgium. Then, of course, you can have pregnant women from Africa bowling up for delivery, and if it all goes wrong, you can sue. Or a family from Eastern Europe, without a word of English between them, come over. Now we get to fix every medical problem they have and have to educate the kids in whatever language they communicate in.
Whatever else the EU may say about us, we are a very generous nation. The Irish should be particularly grateful as we even set up caravan parks to house their surplus.
There we have the classic hubris of the Brexiteer Englishman. The sense of superiority mixed with the newly discovered victimhood. Whether your little tale is true or not it points to a chaotic NHS. Not the EU's fault. In any case your broken leg story is implausible. Belgium is not a third world country.

As for your Irish comment. Well after centuries of exploitation by ruthless colonisers we are grateful you've recognised your failings. Thank you for the caravan parks. Remember you are the people who invaded and raped our country and even now cling onto part of it.
Isn't it so deliciously ironic that your precious independence from a union hangs on the fact you continue to occupy part of someone else's country only this time it's not so little, pathetic Ireland on it's own. It's 26 other countries on our side.
Reap what you sow.
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 21:57
  #1475 (permalink)  
 
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In other news, Tony Blair has done his chances of getting a plum EU top job (should he achieve him aim of a cancellation of A50) no harm with his eloquent plea for a second referendum. He omitted to say what would happen if the result was a close leave win. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bybtbp
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Old 15th Dec 2018, 22:46
  #1476 (permalink)  
 
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I don't buy it SA. The EU is an accretion of power. On what basis do you think it is a force for good? Fall of Roman Empire has nothing to do with it. Take note of its self belief in its doctrine and it's expansionist instincts.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 04:59
  #1477 (permalink)  
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And a passing mention for the "R" word, not one that's being prominent thus far, but probably will be in the near future.

Not that this will overly concern those whose vision of the future is not dissimilar to the effects of looking at the sun for an extended period.... without sunglasses.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...t-hour-cartoon
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 06:30
  #1478 (permalink)  
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If Britain were to have another referendum and voted to remain, part of the blood price for that would be to join the Euro currency.
When the next European recession rolls around in 2020, the ECB having given up on quantitive easing and having no anti recession weapons left, countries in the Eurozone will be amongst the worst affected in the world.
The USA will be in the middle of an election year and measures will be taken there to stave off recession by whatever means are possible. This will have a disastrously deleterious knock on effect on the European economies.
Britain's only chance of avoiding being dragged down in the maelstrom of he next world recession is to keep her own currency and to preserve her own economic policies and council. Further alliance with the EU, an acceptance of greater federalism or a commitment to increase financial contributions to the EU will lead to a hard recession in the UK by 2020. It will anyway be too late by then to have a third EU referendum although it should perhaps be remembered that, once the precedent of government by referendums has been set as it looks as though it is about to be, it's very difficult for a country to move on within itself without one.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 06:40
  #1479 (permalink)  
 
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If Britain were to have another referendum and voted to remain, part of the blood price for that would be to join the Euro currency.
I thought the current deal was that if the U.K. revoked article 50 (even if as a result of a referendum) we remain on our existing terms and hold on to those “opt outs” we hold dear, including not using the Euro....

If however we actually leave and at some point in the future the try and rejoin the EU then yes, we would no doubt only be allowed back having lost the opt outs.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 06:41
  #1480 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
If Britain were to have another referendum and voted to remain, part of the blood price for that would be to join the Euro currency.
This is simply not true - the ECJ made it quite clear that if we withdrew the art.50 notification we would remain on our existing terms (no schengen, no Euro). So the rest of your point is irrelevant.

PDR
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