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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 14th Dec 2018, 07:42
  #1341 (permalink)  
 
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She is a known quantity. The inescapable conclusion is prevarication is not strategy. I've said consistently that Brexit is not a defined outcome, when the correspondent above talks about hard Brexit without explaining what that means, I find my point illustrated.

May made choices that can't be reconciled & unbendingly pursues them in a tone deaf manner to the continual diminution of the UK's stature as we wake to the news of the PM appealing to others to help her out of problems of her own making, it's another perfect demonstration of that for those of us who can look through the predictably pejorative characterisation of events painted by the Tory press.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 07:43
  #1342 (permalink)  
 
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My daughter, a staunch remainer and a lawyer, tells of a friend, a Belgium lawyer, who broke a leg in a cycling accident. That person travelled to London, stayed in a hotel, presented herself to A&E, and got it fixed. That was cheaper than getting it sorted in Belgium. Then, of course, you can have pregnant women from Africa bowling up for delivery, and if it all goes wrong, you can sue. Or a family from Eastern Europe, without a word of English between them, come over. Now we get to fix every medical problem they have and have to educate the kids in whatever language they communicate in.
Whatever else the EU may say about us, we are a very generous nation. The Irish should be particularly grateful as we even set up caravan parks to house their surplus.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 07:57
  #1343 (permalink)  
 
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Zzzzz. Banging on about health tourism is Farage 101 & a total irrelevance to the debate & the NHS budget for that matter.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:01
  #1344 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry to have an opinion which differs from yours.​​​​​​
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:11
  #1345 (permalink)  
 
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You're free to hold your opinion. I'm equally free to put it in perspective.

NHS budget 2018 ~125bn. Health tourism cost estimates range from 110-280m.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:24
  #1346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
My daughter, a staunch remainer and a lawyer, tells of a friend, a Belgium lawyer, who broke a leg in a cycling accident. That person travelled to London, stayed in a hotel, presented herself to A&E, and got it fixed. That was cheaper than getting it sorted in Belgium.
You will then no doubt be pleased to know the U.K. taxpayer shouldn’t have paid a penny for that, thanks to the EU.

If the NHS had handled the admin correctly then post treatment the Belgian authorities would have been sent the bill....That is how Healthcare for EU nationals works between the various EU states...a system we may well fall out of at the end of March.

Thanks a lot.


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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:26
  #1347 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Optimistic, you say:
Whatever else the EU may say about us, we are a very generous nation. The Irish should be particularly grateful as we even set up caravan parks to house their surplus.
I don't question the first bit about British generosity (in general), but your remark about caravan parks is Brexiteer nonsense at its most xenophobic. There is a large two-way movement between Britain and Ireland and a huge number of resident Brits getting Irish passports, with no resentment from the locals. (And we don't have caravan parks to house them!)
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:26
  #1348 (permalink)  
 
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@S. You miss the point. Why did so many people vote to leave the EU? Why is freedom of movement acknowledged to be the prime reason? Ok, so what is so wrong with free movement in the eyes of those who voted brexit? If they are wrong, the argument hasnt been made let alone won. The case for the EU was badly made at the referendum, it hardly had a champion and the argument degenerated into a you'll be sorry trope. Hasn't been developed in the two years since either. The Conservatives can't make a remain case, and Labour first won't, and second maybe can't either. Had two years to address concerns but nothing done. By the way, no one knows the costs to the NHS but if pushed they come out with something. If people feel something to be true, it is true and they vote accordingly and contrary opinions are degraded, either by bogus numbers, accusing them of looney tendencies, mental deficiency of victims of a fascist press. The latter, at least, you agree with.
​​​​

Last edited by Mr Optimistic; 14th Dec 2018 at 08:43. Reason: Clarify which post in response to
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:32
  #1349 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry E101, my bad. However a hard brexit may throw light on the relative treatment of Irish and other EU citizens if it comes to that. A soft brexit which puts the border between the GB and the island of Ireland may do the same. In striving so hard to avoid a border, isn't Eire risking more than it realises?
​Oh, I doubt that many of the passport seekers actually intend to take up residence, irrespective of housing. What the expat Brits do in Spain and elsewhere will be interesting, but having an Eire passport might reduce risks to them in their sunny abode.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:42
  #1350 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
Why is freedom of movement acknowledged to be the prime reason?​​​​
Is it?

Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
By the way, no one knows the costs to the NHS but if pushed they come out with something.
​​​​
It's said frequently that Brexit is akin to a religious cult. Its adherents plough on with it in the face of logic, reason & facts. That I provided those on this subject not an hour ago & immediately see this opinion soup restated without delay, depressingly illustrates this neatly, There is simply no reasoning with people like this. Pure blind faith.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:46
  #1351 (permalink)  
 
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It's said frequently that Brexit is akin to a religious cult
I think remain is much the same.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:50
  #1352 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
I think remain is much the same.
The difference is remain is based in fact. We know the connotations of remaining, Leaving is a leap into a world of unicorns. If you haven't grasped this by now, then you are an adherent to the cult.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:51
  #1353 (permalink)  
 
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Frequently said by whom? I voted remain. You have to reason with people like that if you respect the fact that people believe in things you don't, and are content to live in a democracy. The idea, as I understand it, is that you have to persuade sufficient people to come over to your point of view. So first you listen, then you make your case. It's called politics isn't it. Sometimes no one can win, which seems to be where we are. Until TM steps down, hopefully soon but looks like January 21 cannot see how anything changes. The Remainders seem complacent and implacable, the leavers are angry and implacable.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:54
  #1354 (permalink)  
 
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Now that May has come back from the EU without her piece of paper, perhaps those useless members of what we laughingly call a Government will finally understand that a nice friendly deal always was, is now, and always will be an impossibility.
The cherry picking season has finished and it's time now to prepare for a very long hard winter.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 09:00
  #1355 (permalink)  
 
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I would agree, if you said those useless members of what we call a parliament. The opposition seems to be in opposition but without offering a credible alternative other than an alternative selection of cherries. Had they been remain, we could at least believe an election would sort it out. A delay seems inevitable, so the hard winter will be political and economic. A managed hard brexit would be preferable.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 09:01
  #1356 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
Frequently said by whom? I voted remain. You have to reason with people like that if you respect the fact that people believe in things you don't, and are content to live in a democracy. The idea, as I understand it, is that you have to persuade sufficient people to come over to your point of view. So first you listen, then you make your case. It's called politics isn't it. Sometimes no one can win, which seems to be where we are. Until TM steps down, hopefully soon but looks like January 21 cannot see how anything changes. The Remainders seem complacent and implacable, the leavers are angry and implacable.
All very informative. As someone who tries hard to operate on evidence, I find it risible to read you parroting Ukippy lines about foreigners abusing the NHS. In that spirit, I provide facts & figures to illustrate how the issue has been blown up out of all perspective by a right wing press & a bunch of amoral right wing politicians in pursuit of a specific agenda & your response, literally a few posts above is to repeat yourself with - 'oh, well, no one really knows the scale of the problem anyway.' You cannot keep on saying 'it's politics mate, all about opinions' when facts are placed before you & expect to be taken seriously.

It's head in the sand stuff & deeply unhelpful credulousness the ultimate expression of which is the shambles we find ourselves in today.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 09:15
  #1357 (permalink)  
 
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As I said it's politics, and you need to persuade. This well illustrates the current debate: attack, attack , attack. There will always be people who don't accept your point of view, and your version of facts. All just too polarised. Better to have a hard brexit, if managed, and to negotiate from there. Continuing damage caused by uncertainty, or short term disruptive loss followed by subsequent trade negotiations outside of the current emotion. It's a lose lose situation.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 09:16
  #1358 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
The difference is remain is based in fact. We know the connotations of remaining, Leaving is a leap into a world of unicorns. If you haven't grasped this by now, then you are an adherent to the cult.
I'm not at all convinced that "remain is based on fact" at all.

Sure, we know all about our relationship with the EU before we handed in the Article 50 notification to leave, and there is the recent CJEU ruling giving a legal interpretation of the consequences of the UK unilaterally revoking that notification and deciding to remain, as defined in the Treaty of Lisbon. However, our relationship with the rest of the EU if we were to do this would change. I'm in no doubt whatsoever that, one way or another, the EU will extract its pound of flesh from the UK for having the audacity to try and leave. Our relationship with the EU has now fundamentally changed, no matter whether we leave or remain, and that change is unlikely to be beneficial to the UK. At the very least we will be in a far worse negotiating position if we were to choose to remain at this late stage, simply because we will have lost credibility with the remainder of the EU member states.

What possible reasons do the EU have for just accepting us back with no future penalties? I can think of none at all, and remain convinced that if we did choose to remain we'd find that we would suffer some form of short to medium term negative impact. Whether that is greater or less than the impact of leaving I have no idea, and I doubt anyone else has, either, as we're dealing with the impact of speculation, in the main.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 09:17
  #1359 (permalink)  
 
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No my friend, you miss the point, You are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitle to your own facts. and this: Better to have a hard brexit, is universally acknowledged by anyone who isn't walking around with their head in the clouds to be a catastrophe for the UK.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 09:19
  #1360 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
The difference is remain is based in fact. We know the connotations of remaining, Leaving is a leap into a world of unicorns. If you haven't grasped this by now, then you are an adherent to the cult.
It is tempting to say that remaining is based on fact, and to a very large extent I would agree with you since it is of course very largely a continuation of what currently exists. But it is not completely the case. I would cite the issue of a future European army - is there going to be one or not? Its future decisions like this, and it's a very big decision, that cause so much angst in the UK.
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