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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 13th Dec 2018, 15:49
  #1321 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Martin the Martian View Post
Yes, I don't understand how 52% is the will of people while 67% means she still has to go.
Simples:

Us = the will of the people

Them = the MPs on the loosing side
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 16:05
  #1322 (permalink)  
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Interesting legal constitutional argument that, having made a statement to the HoC on 26th November, the government no longer has an legal obligation to make a statement to the House or allow a meaning vote at all - unless the Opposition can somehow make the time to raise a motion “not to pass” part of the EU Withdrawal bill.


On 26 November the Government made a statement to the House of Commons which had legal effect, it said that political agreement had been reached: (link:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...-november-2018) gov.uk/government/spe…. This met requirement of section 13(1)(a)(i) of the EUW Act 2018.

My understanding of section 13 is that once that said statement has been made section 13(7) and 13(10) of the EUW Act 2018 no longer bite. Meaning there is no legal obligation for the Government to make a statement or lay a motion either before or after 21 January........

One conclusion to draw is that if the House of Commons wants to trigger the section 13 government statement and motion before 21 January, the clearest route would be to make a 'decision not to pass' section 13 (4) EUW act 2018. Without such a trigger, I would suggest the Government is not currently under a legal obligation to make a statement or lay a motion relating to the Brexit deal at any point before exit day.

Jack Simpson Caird
Senior Research Fellow in Parliaments and the Rule of Law
Honorary Research Fellow, Sussex Law
Public lawyer

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Old 13th Dec 2018, 17:54
  #1323 (permalink)  
 
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Today, the government announced they will give an extra £161M to the police (a 2% increase). Meanwhile, the same government is preparing to hand over £39Bn to the EU. Bloody crackers!
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 18:51
  #1324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
OTOH the French et al say OK then a Gaulic shrug and get on with life, or the next riot.
I'm not entirely sure flogging that old horse is a true representation of facts. I don't think anyone's suggesting the French are unfamiliar with operating to exact standards, after all they're hosting a rather large aircraft corporation, a space program, several nuclear facilities and some very nippy trains. You can't do that with any sort of regularity or safety, if you're not a sucker for standards and procedures.

The biggest difference seems to be a perception in the UK, that they alone apply all rules and regulations unquestionably, rigoursly and to the letter, whilst everyone east of La Manche are rather more haphazard in their application of EU dictats.

Whilst that has some, or a lot of, truth to it as you head deeper East and South East, it's not really true unless you are south of the Alps or east of the Elb. And even there, in e.g. Greece and Italy, the reduction in CAP subsidies and a more stringent regiment of controls, have helped to reduce the fraud. Our new EE members, with long traditions of corruption and graft in Communist dictatorships, naturally and as anyone should have expected, applied those skills to the open EU purses. And with some success, it must be noted.

We joined the game, as did the UK, in '72, and if you have a look at the societies then and now, you'd be hard pressed to argue that choice has made your life worse. Rather on the contrary in fact, as a large part of the wealth enjoyed in West- and Northern Europe is the direct result of ever closer European economic and social cooperation. It's inconceivable that the EU member nations would have attained the same result, had they all worked as competing entities; the toll barriers alone would have stifled growth several orders of magnitude.

The EU is not perfect, or even pretty at times, but the alternative is infinitely worse. The trick is, therefore, to affect change from the inside, something the UK and her usual partners (Netherlands, Denmark, others depending on the subject) were rather apt at. Following Mr. Farage into the abyss was a perfect example of falling for demagoguery, fraud, hatred and lies.

They do like their riots though, le French. And strikes. Or, preferably, a combination of the two - think we all recall the images of an Air France executive being chased over a fence by an angry mob of workers, cloths half torn off.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 19:11
  #1325 (permalink)  
 
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Further to the above, here's a few facts and figures on how different contries comply with EU regulations. UK seems pretty average and, at the end of the day, there's really not much difference between them. If you really think 0,1% difference in conformity is a big deal, I'd bravely suggest your sensitivity gland may need adjustments.

UK
Transposition deficit: 1.1 % (EU Avg. 0,9%, target 0,5%)
Overdue directives: 11
Average delay: 8.3 months (EU Avg. 8,7 months)
Conformity deficit: 0.6 % (EU Avg. 0,6%, target 0,5%)

France
Transposition deficit: 0.2 %
Overdue directives: 2
Average delay: 4.3 months
Conformity deficit: 0.7 %

Italy
Transposition deficit: 0.4 %
Overdue directives: 4
Average delay: 16 months
Conformity deficit: 0.7 %

Netherlands
Transposition deficit: 0.9 %
Overdue directives: 9
Average delay: 13.2 months
Conformity deficit: 0.6 %

Romania
Transposition deficit: 1.5 %
Overdue directives: 16
Average delay: 9.1 months
Conformity deficit: 0.3 %

All from: Performance per Member State - European Commission
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 19:19
  #1326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SMT Member View Post
I

The trick is, therefore, to affect change from the inside, something the UK and her usual partners (Netherlands, Denmark, others depending on the subject) were rather apt at. Following Mr. Farage into the abyss was a perfect example of falling for demagoguery, fraud, hatred and lies.

.
This is such an obvious, universal truth that I'm staggered it isn't staring people in the face, I can only surmise in the past two months where we've seen one cabinet level Brexit supporter fail to realise we're an Island, another musing that we could starve the Irish (again) if they didn't concede on the NI Border & another suggest that all English could apply for an Irish passport that some form of collective nostalgia has taken grip where the Raj never ended, the world jumped at every diktat emanating from Whitehall. I find us to be long on strong emotions about the EU, & very, very short on understanding.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 19:19
  #1327 (permalink)  
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I don't think anyone's suggesting the French are unfamiliar with operating to exact standards, after all they're hosting a rather large aircraft corporation, a space program, several nuclear facilities and some very nippy trains. You can't do that with any sort of regularity or safety, if you're not a sucker for standards and procedures.
I admit it was a generalisation but the point is France for the French and your points are French rather than EU.

What I said about Britain enforcing regulations was not my thought but a statement by Douglas Bird.

I also remember two rather one sided conversations with two Germans that Maggie Thatcher was too inflexible.

The key would appear to be work within the rules, or at least near them.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 19:33
  #1328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
If this is a sincerely held view, that revolves around your hoover not being all it was then unravelling forty years of economic, political & social cooperation patently isn't the answer. Is there any facet of our democracy Brexiteers won't disparage in pursuit of their pipe dream?
I am certainly of the opinion that the Brexit vote was as much a vote against the way the UK government operated within the EU, as it was against the EU per se.
You clearly underestimate the annoyance caused by inappropriate decisions which "cannot be fixed" as they have an EU seal.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 19:48
  #1329 (permalink)  
 
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I am certainly of the opinion that the Brexit vote was as much a vote against the way the UK government operated
I think if you left the statement at that you could probably account for a significant percentage of the leave vote....(Yes, I know a complete guess but..)
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 20:23
  #1330 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, plus our inability to adjust our welfare systems to cope with free movement of people and allow misuse.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 20:44
  #1331 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
Yes, plus our inability to adjust our welfare systems to cope with free movement of people and allow misuse.
Agreed...having personally sat through a very comprehensive application for residency interview in an EU state not that long ago it is amazing what can be done if there is the will ..... but again it was easier for some to blame the EU/Brussels....
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 22:10
  #1332 (permalink)  
 
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Its interesting to pick up on some of the comments on here about so many of the Brexit issues actually being the fault of our government or civil service. I posted earlier today about the complete disparity in immigration rules and procedures between immigrants from many former colonial or current commonwealth countries being able to reside in UK with UK passports where there is no possibility of reciprocity because very few Brits have ancestors living in 'the colonies ' yet armies of Aussies can come here even though great grandad was a brit and we know why a lot of them ended up in Aussie.

Similarly health care, in France you have to pay a contribution towards the costs of any medical treatment its not much but its something here we have ludicrously open system with no ID checks or anything again just sheer laziness on the part of MPs and civil servants .

Same thing with wider scale immigration. We are an island (despite a potential new PM not actually understanding that but perhaps as Czech he does not know what sea looks like ) and yet we cannot police immigration even though we can control every border far more easily than almost every other EU state.
We have a badly and weakly admisitered social security system with too much easy access to non Eu citizens .
all these things are our fault- try the stunts people here pull to get social security in Germany where they still check addresses and travel docs with Gestapo like thoroughness , try doing the same in France with their ID cards that must be carried 24/7 or Sweden where your personnummer that you get at birth follows you to your grave and is necessary for every step along lifes highway in between. No wonder too many people come to UK because we are lazy and can't be bothered to run our own country properly but somehow blame it on the EU. Will all these things change if we leave , no because the same people in the tired out of date civil service and the even more out of date unfit for purpose MPs who have sat on their hands for the last forty years will still be doing nothing to protect genuine UK citizens from these huge abuses.

By the way has Farage (good old fashioned English name that) died or emigrated to Germany courtey of his wife's nationality-we dont see or thankfully heer from the bigoted little traitor these days-perhaps the Russian funding has run out.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 22:49
  #1333 (permalink)  
 
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Well said, pax.
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 23:06
  #1334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
... in France with their ID cards that must be carried 24/7 ... we are lazy and can't be bothered to run our own country properly
I do not think that deliberately choosing not to turn the UK into a police state (and yes, I have been arrested in France for not taking my passport with me on a trip to the beach) can be described as "lazy and can't be bothered to run our own country properly".

Labour did actually start the police state project, and one of the things the Coalition got right was killing it stone cold dead. That wasn't "lazy", the campaigning that went into that win could better be described as "bloody hard work" (although, to be sure, nowhere near the amount of bloody hard work that we're now having to put into killing #brexit stone cold dead).
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Old 13th Dec 2018, 23:07
  #1335 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Well said, pax.
plus one as well!
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 07:31
  #1336 (permalink)  
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The Times: Brexit: EU humiliates May with refusal to budge on deal

Theresa May was humiliated by European leaders late last night after they rejected pleas for any further concessions to get her Brexit deal through parliament.

France and Ireland led a move to strike out a compromise agreement that would have given the prime minister “political and legal assurances” that Britain would not be trapped in an indefinite Irish backstop. Instead EU leaders took an uncompromising stance, refusing any form of binding guarantee and deleting a pledge that the backstop “does not represent a desirable outcome” for Europe.

The rejection means that the prime minister will return from Brussels empty handed despite a personal appeal to her fellow leaders to help to get the deal over the line. Downing Street sources tried to put a brave face on the setback, saying that private messages from EU leaders were that “further discussions” had not been ruled out.

However, in another blow, a European commitment that if the backstop were ever triggered “it would only be in place for a short period” was struck out of the summit conclusions........



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Old 14th Dec 2018, 07:59
  #1337 (permalink)  
 
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'Uncompromising stance'.

Other narratives are available.




And another.

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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:18
  #1338 (permalink)  
 
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Wonder what TM's plan is now. Having been shown the irreconcilable opposition within her own party, and observing her manoeuvres to avoid accepting a defeat in the House which is an inevitable outcome, will she now stand down ( after making a stomach churning speech praising her own spirit and efforts)?
Hard Brexit doesn't have to be a disorderly Brexit, but can be made so if leadership is absent - which it now seems it is. As the House seems irreconcilably divided, and an election would likely not resolve anything, another referendum maybe? Perhaps but that can only be effective if the Brexit vote is reversed, an open admission that there is no route to an arrangement which will pass in the house starting from here. If brexit is confirmed then we are back here again.
The real obstacle isn't the backstop, it's the fact that the Labour opposition, representing half of the population, is moribund and offers no rallying point.
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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:23
  #1339 (permalink)  
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Doesn’t conflict within the final result - but points to TM’s culpability for it. By all accounts she gave the same speech as she gives every time, full of vague meaningless waffle.

I am am reminded of the article by Matthew Parris in The Times a couple of days ago when he recalls his first meetings with her....

”My second encounter was more revealing. Some years ago, when she was still home secretary and (in retrospect) already dreaming of leadership, she made a tour of East Midlands activists that culminated in a big dinner in Derbyshire. She surprised many of us with a strong, if fairly empty, speech and seemed relaxed and in command. Questions from the audience were respectful and she fielded them competently.

Then a woman got up from a table near the window. We all recognised Edwina Currie, who had been MP for a neighbouring constituency. Her husband is a retired senior police officer. Not long before, Mrs May had made a pugnacious speech to the Police Federation, with whom she clashed. Mrs Currie’s question was courteous but critical, suggesting that Mrs May had failed to support the police. “Well,” I thought, “May will know how to answer this one.”

But she fell apart. She was like a TV presenter whose Autocue had gone on the blink. Mentally or emotionally unprepared for a hostile question from a friendly audience, she floundered. She could have tackled Mrs Currie either with diplomacy or fightback, but both failed her. I was shocked. Here was a senior cabinet minister, sometimes spoken of as a future leader, who, faced with the unforeseen, seemed entirely incapable of busking it.......”

”My last encounter with her was not long after she became prime minister. Being regarded as a “friendly” journalist, I was invited to Downing Street for coffee. It was appalling. I had arrived with one thought in mind: to warn her that the Tory right would never be her friends, and she should not lose the respect of Tory moderates. But instead of engaging, all I got was what sounded like extracts from old speeches. And this to an old colleague and friend.

I kissed her as I left. She looked a little alarmed. But the truth is I had arrived as a supporter, and departed dismayed. Win though she did last night, hundreds of her MPs have made the same transition.”



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Old 14th Dec 2018, 08:29
  #1340 (permalink)  
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PaxB, you missed the point that in some EU hospitals you receive medical treatment; you do not benefit from hotel treatment, e.g. Food. You could argue that food is an essential part of recovery.

Are other EU hospitals used as part of social services? Do they provide beds for people who could be tended at home by what used to be District Nurses?

My wife used to volunteer to deliver meals for Meals on Wheels until they stopped for some reason. They didn't operate over Chistmas anyway so the local RAF unit provided meals - now? A trip to A&E.

If we think £350m/w, £39bn, money tree, or whatever will make a difference, cloud cuckoo land.
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