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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 5th Nov 2018, 18:46
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by goofer3 View Post
How many who voted remain were conned? In local or other elections a recount is sometimes required. Even thought the result in the end is sometimes very small , the result stands. They don't rerun the election.
They do actually, every five years at the most.

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Old 5th Nov 2018, 18:50
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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O.K. But they don't rerun THAT election.
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 19:15
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
Would you have been so obliging, though, if the result of the first referendum had been 52-% - 48% to remain?
Had the result been the other way, then we wouldn't have got involved in invoking Art.50, fundamentally changing the way the UK and it's international relationships are managed, and perhaps most importantly for the whole of the UK, Northern Ireland and it's arrangements with the Irish Republic would have been a non issue. Changed situations require a new mandate, based on the facts of leaving rather than claims and counter claims. No point whinging about it though, since a new vote ain't about to happen no matter how many business people, barristers or whoever else calls for it, as the unity of the Conservative party is all that matters (and incidentally if the boot were on the other foot the unity of the Labour party would have been the deciding factor).

There would (as things stand at present) be no reason to consider a new referendum, peoples vote, or whatever anyone would like to call it. HOWEVER, if the EU suddenly decided that a large nation like Turkey should join the EU, or that an EU army would be formed to encompass the UK armed forces, or that the UK were to be forced to join the Euro and Schengen (all scenarios that were claimed by the remain campaign as the likely consequences were we to remain in the EU) then YES, a referendum should quite properly have been called.

Fortunately the EU wouldn't be able to inflict any of those things on the UK, or any other member state - the national veto that covers all such situations would have seen to that.
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 19:58
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by goofer3 View Post
O.K. But they don't rerun THAT election.
They do if the same candidates stand.
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 21:08
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife View Post
A little learning is a dangerous thing
So nice (and rare) not to see that misquoted as "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

But on the other hand I do luuuurve recursive jokes ...

(What little Pope I've picked up is because my mother was doing it for a second (and successful) chance at getting her degree whilst I was a teenager.)
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 22:54
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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My sister was seriously thinking about voting leave; perhaps she did in the end. It was her vote so my only attempt to influence her against doing this, was to suggest weighing up which side of the argument had the overwhelmingly convinced on it: Clearly the leave campaign. What was this conviction based on? A thorough knowledge of the consequences and clear advantages for Britain? Hardly.

Having met many Brits prior to the vote, it was clear that many could not wait to have their day and make a point. Brexit was always the default position for the angry and disaffected, the nationalistic and jingoistic, and the threatened and nostalgic. And, of course, a golden opportunity for speculative capital.

I get the reason why a lot of people voted leave. If I lived in Rotherham or Doncaster, Liverpool or any number of other British cities that are poor, I’d have done the same I’m sure. But the EU has not caused that poverty. It’s been there for decades. And it is UK national governments, local councils and citizens themselves that don’t seem capable of creating a better place to live. And leaving the EU is a tragedy for those citizens who think that leaving is the path to salvation. Because the people in power will be the same inept, corrupt and visionless monkeys whose leadership that oversaw that poverty in the first place. Who really believes that those mentioned towns will be flourishing hubs of Britain 20 years after Brexit?

As if! And sadly, I bet a lot of those who voted leave don’t believe it either. It was a vote of powerlessness and desperation. But it was also a vote for more of the same and worse. It is those towns that will feel it most when EU investment in deprived regions stops; when the UK government is driven to further austerity due to reduced trading volumes. And when the next debt default wave hits. Is Sterling likely to be a currency of flight post-Brexit?

The other thing I didn’t day to my sister was to ask which side of the argument had pretty much all the nutters on it? But I guess that even after the killing of Jo Cox, people just don’t see where xenophobia and nationalism leads.

Enoch Powell talked about immigration leading to blood on the streets due to interracial violence – he was wrong.
France and Germany entered a trading pact with the aim of ensuring peace between two great European rivals – they were right.

In 6 months EU citizenship ends for UK citizens. But if there were to be a major war in Europe, we’d still up fighting in defence of and for the rights of our mainland neighbours and the island nations. In fact, for the rights which we already have. How f-ing stupid.
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 23:15
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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HOWEVER, if the EU suddenly decided that a large nation like Turkey should join the EU, or that an EU army would be formed to encompass the UK armed forces, or that the UK were to be forced to join the Euro and Schengen (all scenarios that were claimed by the remain campaign as the likely consequences were we to remain in the EU)
Er, no they were the erroneous claims made by the leave campaigners. Farage in particular got on his high horse as often as possible to make all those claims, especially the idea that Turkey would join soon. Utter garbage as usual from the UKIP mouth peice.
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Old 6th Nov 2018, 09:10
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
My sister was seriously thinking about voting leave; perhaps she did in the end. It was her vote so my only attempt to influence her against doing this, was to suggest weighing up which side of the argument had the overwhelmingly convinced on it: Clearly the leave campaign. What was this conviction based on? A thorough knowledge of the consequences and clear advantages for Britain? Hardly.

Having met many Brits prior to the vote, it was clear that many could not wait to have their day and make a point. Brexit was always the default position for the angry and disaffected, the nationalistic and jingoistic, and the threatened and nostalgic. And, of course, a golden opportunity for speculative capital.

I get the reason why a lot of people voted leave. If I lived in Rotherham or Doncaster, Liverpool or any number of other British cities that are poor, Iíd have done the same Iím sure. But the EU has not caused that poverty. Itís been there for decades. And it is UK national governments, local councils and citizens themselves that donít seem capable of creating a better place to live. And leaving the EU is a tragedy for those citizens who think that leaving is the path to salvation. Because the people in power will be the same inept, corrupt and visionless monkeys whose leadership that oversaw that poverty in the first place. Who really believes that those mentioned towns will be flourishing hubs of Britain 20 years after Brexit?

As if! And sadly, I bet a lot of those who voted leave donít believe it either. It was a vote of powerlessness and desperation. But it was also a vote for more of the same and worse. It is those towns that will feel it most when EU investment in deprived regions stops; when the UK government is driven to further austerity due to reduced trading volumes. And when the next debt default wave hits. Is Sterling likely to be a currency of flight post-Brexit?

The other thing I didnít day to my sister was to ask which side of the argument had pretty much all the nutters on it? But I guess that even after the killing of Jo Cox, people just donít see where xenophobia and nationalism leads.

Enoch Powell talked about immigration leading to blood on the streets due to interracial violence Ė he was wrong.
France and Germany entered a trading pact with the aim of ensuring peace between two great European rivals Ė they were right.

In 6 months EU citizenship ends for UK citizens. But if there were to be a major war in Europe, weíd still up fighting in defence of and for the rights of our mainland neighbours and the island nations. In fact, for the rights which we already have. How f-ing stupid.
Absolutely correct. There's nothing more to be said.
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Old 6th Nov 2018, 14:39
  #109 (permalink)  

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"As I have said before, don't blame those who voted leave, blame those who allowed the situation whereby some people felt that the only way to get their voices heard was to vote leave. There are now those who say that the vote should be overturned. Do you seriously think that treating those who voted leave with such contempt will solve the problems? Because that is exactly the reason some people voted leave."

Spot on!

Mac

Torquetalk (and Sallyann1234) says it all - well spoken!
And for those with a historical bent, that is what happened in Germany in 1933...
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 04:07
  #110 (permalink)  
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It's the rebuttal in the last paragraph that's so ironic really......because unfortunately, "shut up and go away " being but one classic example......you would expect such content.

Thus we await the Mail / Excess headlines to duly reflect this cunning plan to assure the public all is now seamlessly completed .......apart from that is.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-the-narrative
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 07:06
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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ďAssure the public is seamlessly completed..?Ē Nobody Has remotely suggested anything is complete. Not least because even if, against the odds, we come up with an acceptable deal, or (even more unlikely)a great one, Labour will devote their full resources to scupper and sabotage it.
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 00:22
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I'd be the very last person to defend the illegal warmonger Blair, but I think even he is allowed to his change his mind on a subject after more than 30 years.
It only took Teresa May a few months to change her mind about Brexit. Was she wrong too?
She has not changed her mind. She is pursuing the policies and following the instructions of those who supported her installation as PM and for the express purpose of frustrating the democratically expressed desire of the electorate to leave the EU. She was and continues to be a Remainer and as can be determined from her scandalously inept handling of the process, she is fulfilling her brief rather well.
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 09:23
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
She has not changed her mind. She is pursuing the policies and following the instructions of those who supported her installation as PM and for the express purpose of frustrating the democratically expressed desire of the electorate to leave the EU. She was and continues to be a Remainer and as can be determined from her scandalously inept handling of the process, she is fulfilling her brief rather well.
The blind dogma of the leaver. It's an article of faith that anything other than pulling up the drawbridge & cutting off those smelly furriners is a full on betrayal of 'the will of the people'. I'm amazed you didn't shoehorn Olly Robbins the remain traitor in. It would have been the Brexit bingo. It never ceases to amaze me how myopically some people treat this, as if it's some kind of rubber stamping exercise & not in fact a demonstrably undeliverable fantasy fuelled by forty years of lies by the right wing press & the swivel eyed loony wing of the Tory party. As I've said before, this rubbish is transactional, all that matters is Brexit day & stuff the country.
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 13:29
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
The blind dogma of the leaver. It's an article of faith that anything other than pulling up the drawbridge & cutting off those smelly furriners is a full on betrayal of 'the will of the people'. I'm amazed you didn't shoehorn Olly Robbins the remain traitor in. It would have been the Brexit bingo. It never ceases to amaze me how myopically some people treat this, as if it's some kind of rubber stamping exercise & not in fact a demonstrably undeliverable fantasy fuelled by forty years of lies by the right wing press & the swivel eyed loony wing of the Tory party. As I've said before, this rubbish is transactional, all that matters is Brexit day & stuff the country.
Oh dear - this seems a rather unreasoned response to something which I did not mention. I fear, Parapunter, that in your haste to express your views, you have missed the point of what I was seeking to convey.

My argument does not concern the merits or otherwise of either the Remain or Leave camps; my concern arises from the blatant denial of popular democracy by the establishment - and I'll make the point before I'm gagged by one of Theresa May's non-disclosure orders. This reprehensible behaviour has attended every national plebiscite/referendum relating to membership of the EU - vide Holland, France, Ireland et al and now, following the failure of Project Fear, it is being applied here again. Deafening is the clamour for a "people's referendum". Who the hell is thought to have participated in the referendum of 2016?

Even if you had been alive at the time, you may not have been old enough to have understood the political situation attending the general elections of 1974. After the hung parliament of earlier in the year, the October election returned Harold Wilson with a majority of only three members in the Commons and a lead in the popular vote of fewer people than was recorded in the EU referendum; in both numerical and percentage terms, this was less than the result of 2016. Nevertheless, the contest had been won, Wilson formed a government and nobody sought to question its legitimacy. That was how things were done. Seemingly things are different now - we go on voting until the EU gets its way. This is NOT democracy and that is my point.
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 14:34
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Er, what denial of democracy? The government you seem to loathe so much is committed to leaving the EU. It's said so enough times.


Or is this slightly swivel eyed rant more about not getting the precise, exact Brexit YOU want, despite the blindingly obvious truth that no one knows what that is, since the government didn't offer a precis of how it would supersede 40 years & 700 separate agreements prior to placing a big red button marked 'blow up Westminster elites' in front of a bunch of politically myopic trawler-men (GDP contribution 2%) & has now spent two wasted years arguing with itself on the very same point.

Dammit all man, what do you want???
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 15:39
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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I seriously thought about voting Leave. My motivation would primarily have been to give Cameron a bloody nose. I thought seriously enough to go to,the polling station and get a ballot paper. In the end I put it in the box unmarked. The main reason that I didn't carry through with my plan was Boris. I didn't believe a word he said and I'm pretty sure that if Remain could have delivered him the job of PM he would have been a passionate Remainer. The man is a cad and a bounder.
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 15:43
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Er, what denial of democracy? The government you seem to loathe so much is committed to leaving the EU. It's said so enough times.


Or is this slightly swivel eyed rant more about not getting the precise, exact Brexit YOU want, despite the blindingly obvious truth that no one knows what that is, since the government didn't offer a precis of how it would supersede 40 years & 700 separate agreements prior to placing a big red button marked 'blow up Westminster elites' in front of a bunch of politically myopic trawler-men (GDP contribution 2%) & has now spent two wasted years arguing with itself on the very same point.

Dammit all man, what do you want???
First bit - And which is why so many people, not just those in the UK, want no more of the EU. It's like a computer virus - once in place, it gets into your daily life and controls everything you want to or try to do, and like a computer virus, you can't change it or modify it. You have to erase it, reload your OS, and start again. All of which takes time and effort, but when you've finished, your machine works more quickly and efficiently.

Second bit - You're almost correct here....Too many politicos ( current and ex , Conservative and Socialist, UK and European ) doing their best to frustrate and stop the UK from leaving the EU with a simple Free Trade Agreement which, I will say again, the UK would sign this evening but apparently the EU put their ideology above the economic wellbeing of its citizens.
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 16:18
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post

Second bit - You're almost correct here....Too many politicos ( current and ex , Conservative and Socialist, UK and European ) doing their best to frustrate and stop the UK from leaving the EU with a simple Free Trade Agreement which, I will say again, the UK would sign this evening but apparently the EU put their ideology above the economic wellbeing of its citizens.
Wibble. Completely delusional nonsense.
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 16:24
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Wibble. Completely delusional nonsense.

Do explain, please, which bit is wibble and why.

Do explain, please, which bit is delusional and why.

And do explain, please, which bit is nonsense and why.

Many Thanks in advance,
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Old 8th Nov 2018, 16:52
  #120 (permalink)  
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As we know, Mr Raab wasn't exactly a front runner for this prominent position, not so much plucked from obscurity, more extruded from a depleted barrel, and thus far he's more than fulfilled his capability to enthral us with his sagacity ..this latest offering being truly "World Class " in this respect.

It's terribly reassuring therefore, to learn, that, he hasn't "quite understood " what that little seaside hamlet, with a quaint little quay, nestling in the chalk cliffs of Kent overlooking about 22 miles of sea actually does.....

But, he has grasped that the UK is an island !...so top of the geography class and a Gold star plus an extra jammy dodger there for you Dominic !

You'll excuse me for saying, even with a rational detestation of Tory policies and the majority of Tory politicians......there are some who are very capable as I've said before....... the capabilities of one D.Raab don't exactly inspire confidence for the UK's future

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188
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