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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 14th Oct 2019, 11:26
  #10921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by felixflyer View Post
This isn't about national ID cards but about the need to show ID in order to vote.
Do you mean that voters' ID's are not checked ? Really ?
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 11:32
  #10922 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 72
Posts: 784
Well, I just watched the Queen's speech and found myself shouting at the image of Boris Johnson on the TV. As the Queen was reading out (with a straight face I might add), his froth and romance, he had a constant smirk on his face. A smirk, not even a grin. The kind of expression that says "Aren't I clever? I got the old girl to make all these aspirations I have no chance of achieving and promises I have no intention of keeping".
Meanwhile the speech itself was abysmal. First sentence "We are leaving Europe on October 31st." Just like that. Not even the grace to prefix it with something like "I shall endeavour.."
And then there was the Tory betes noir (sorry about that. My keyboard is not set up to include the circumflex), Bloody foreign Johnnys and criminals. He is promising to keep prisoners inside for even longer and to get them all rehabilitated. There was an excellent discussion on Radio 4 yesterday which demonstrated, quite clearly, how so-called rehabilitation programmes were definitely not working.
And then, poor old Johnny foreigner. He has promised to ensure they are all sent back where appropriate. As if he had just thought of and patented the idea. Such plans and actions are already in place. So much so that the BBC has made a documentary series about this, called "The Fugitives". This shows the work of police forces throughout the country in tracking down and arresting offenders wanted by their home governments for various crimes. The arrests are carried out under the guidelines of criminal extradition proceedings. Then it all seems to go wrong. The rules state that the arrested persons must appear in court in London (one specific court in Westminster) to have justices confirm or deny the extradition proceedings. Sadly, in too many cases, the end result has been the refusal by these justices to approve the warrants. And this includes cases where the accused have been found guilty and sentenced to prison by their home authorities of some serious crimes such as rape, violence, armed robbery etc. In one recent case, a Brazilian man was arrested for violent assault on his ex-wife, including threatening her with a gun. Even though the accused was shown as saying something along the lines of he only waved the gun at her, extradition was refused and he is now free to live in the UK "without let or hindrance".
Boris is also promising the police would be granted powers to arrest people wanted for crimes in their home country. Dear Boris, watch BBC TV and you may learn something!
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:13
  #10923 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 545
Regarding the extradition thing, it all seems to be a little more complicated than a simple court appearance see here
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 12:42
  #10924 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: uk
Age: 62
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Do you mean that voters' ID's are not checked ? Really ?
Nope, no check at all. Why do you think so many people want to come and work in the UK??? You can have two or three National Insurance numbers that you can obtain with any bogus "official ID" and all you have to do is invest in a good comfortable car that you can drive for hours on end to go and collect your benefits, dole or whatever they call it nowadays at the four corners of the Kingdom... I have seen it with my own eyes... just like I have seen (at least) five really nice Phillipinos guys studying at the local Merchant Navy College sharing ONE working contract and clocking card at the local Factory... the first one to get up in the morning would pick it up and go to work.... Their Boss knew it, talked about it, never a problem! When asked what happens in case of an accident... insurance... taxes.... Who cares!!!! This is a "Free" Country... but not so free if you happen to pay taxes... Mind you, the reverse is happening too... you work for nearly three decades and when it's voting time, you are not able to participate... We are nearly two millions in this case...At one stage you decide to join/work/live in a European country... years later you wake-up one morning and find your assets amputated of 20% of their value and in a "Banana Republic" or Kingdom, with your "pension scheme" planned in France wiped out... (in my case an extra house on my land to be rented...) This country stinks Man, well, England does, I worked in Ireland and have family in Scotland and mentality is completely different... even my english wife and franco-english children are disgusted.... And here I am, spending a few hundred Pounds going marching in London this week-end. How stupid can I be?

Last edited by alicopter; 14th Oct 2019 at 13:13.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:02
  #10925 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
Posts: 1,841
I have seen it with my own eyes...
I don't believe you. If true, you have evidence of fraud and are therefore complicit in it.

CG
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:13
  #10926 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
I don't believe you. If true, you have evidence of fraud and are therefore complicit in it.

CG
;-)
The same could be said of *any* citizen knowing an ID card is not compulsory, and not doing his best to change the situation.
Any "anti-ID" people are accomplice to this sloppy and fraud-encouraging administration.

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Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:23
  #10927 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
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Originally Posted by alicopter View Post
Nope, no check at all. Why do you think so many people want to come and work in the UK??? You can have two or three National Insurance numbers that you can obtain with any bogus "official ID" ...
Hard to believe...
If that is true, then such votes couldn't be deemed "democratic" by any western standards.
I also suppose ballot boxes are not always sealed, ballot booths not compulsory, voters' lists inaccurate etc. ?
Is vote counting under public scrutiny, or is it left to some individuals' discretion ?

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Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:34
  #10928 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: uk
Age: 62
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
I don't believe you. If true, you have evidence of fraud and are therefore complicit in it.

CG
I don't care if you believe me or not... why should I waste my time on a forum to tell lies? You can ask the afore mentioned factory bosses if not true... oh wait, the Swedish owners have shut it down!!! Probably the Productivity of their "Zero Hours" workforce was too high and their "approvision dept" could not keep up!!! I pay over 120 a month in Council taxes and it took 6 working days (100 hours) for TWO guys to clear 200m of sea wall close to home... when it would have taken me less than ten hours to do it on my own... (I own a farm so can estimate quite precisely) Fascinating! I spend 3 hours with my dogs on the beach every day, so, I had an entertaining time watching them! May be I should have followed your advice and told the Head of Parish Council... Well, in fact, I almost did. I was discussing this fact with one of my neighbours and he said he would not blame them for taking such a long time since their wages were so crap... then he said... my wife used to be a councillor!...

Last edited by alicopter; 14th Oct 2019 at 13:53.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 13:49
  #10929 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Fly Aiprt; the bad joke in Northern Ireland around election time was "vote early, vote often" which is why NI is now the only place in the UK that you have to show ID when voting.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 14:53
  #10930 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 342
Abuse of postal voting
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 15:38
  #10931 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Hard to believe...
If that is true, then such votes couldn't be deemed "democratic" by any western standards.
I also suppose ballot boxes are not always sealed, ballot booths not compulsory, voters' lists inaccurate etc. ?
Is vote counting under public scrutiny, or is it left to some individuals' discretion ?
Fly: a polling station is manned by a minimum of two people. Before 7am the presiding officer demonstrates the box is empty. The box is then sealed. At 10pm, after the last admitted voter has put his paper in the box is finally sealed and no further votes can be put in or extracted.

As for the lists. Every year a head of household had to return the list of everyone in the household. Should HoH omit to put your name down that is an offence. I don't know what checks are done to prove a person exists. Should a person die they remain on the list until the following year.

At the polling station when you arrive you say where you live. The poll clerk then asks who you are; you tell him. The presiding officer gives you the voting slip. You mark and fold the slip and you post it in the box. The box is not transparent.

For a postal vote you apply. Your name must still be in the register but you cannot vote in person. Your voting papers are posted to you. You sign the cover form and place your vote is another envelope. Your original signature is compared with the new one, validated, and your vote set aside ready for the count. That application could be years ago.
​​​​
You may also appoint a proxy. A proxy will vote as they see fit and possibly not as you would wish. At the moment large households may all appointment one proxy voter.

It is also possible in large households for HoH to collect all the voting envelopes after they have been signed and control the ballot.

There are weaknesses.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 15:55
  #10932 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,657
Alicopter I remember an old primary school question, if a man and a half can dig a hole and a half in a day and a half . . .

In practice, having nothing better to do I watched a hole outside my hut being dug.

The man who arrived set to and had such a fair amount before he was joined by a second. The work rate reduced. When a third arrived, while two actually worked the rate halved again. When a fourth arrived all work ceased.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 15:56
  #10933 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post

Should a person die they remain on the list until the following year.

At the polling station when you arrive you say where you live. The poll clerk then asks who you are; you tell him. The presiding officer gives you the voting slip. You mark and fold the slip and you post it in the box. The box is not transparent...

There are weaknesses.
Pontius, thanks for those precisions.
Any mandatory polling booth, where you must pass to mark your voting slip out of anybody's view ?
Opaque box, so nobody knows what's inside...
Not sure I got it right : once you tell where you live, does the officer check on the town's official voters list, or can anyone from anywhere vote in any place ?
And who checks you are the person you say you are ? What measures to prevent someone from voting several times ?
Or prevent a dead person from voting ?

Here are the criteria for a free and fair election, as in my country :
Declaration on free and fair elections


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Old 14th Oct 2019, 16:14
  #10934 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4,703
: once you tell where you live, does the officer check on the town's official voters list,
Yes.

or can anyone from anywhere vote in any place ?
No

And who checks you are the person you say you are
Nobody

What measures to prevent someone from voting several times ?
Crossed off the list the first time.

prevent a dead person from voting
The coffin lid.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 16:21
  #10935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 342
In some communities, often where there is a concentration of people who are not socially engaged, it is not unknown for a person of local influence to go from door to door assisting the residents to sign up for postal votes.
They return before the election, to assist ​​​​them in filling in the forms or helpfully doing it for them.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 16:38
  #10936 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 67
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
In some communities, often where there is a concentration of people who are not socially engaged, it is not unknown for a person of local influence to go from door to door assisting the residents to sign up for postal votes.
They return before the election, to assist ​​​​them in filling in the forms or helpfully doing it for them.
Years ago, when I was working for our local SDP - Liberal Alliance candidate in an election campaign, I was given a list of names and addresses and told to try and get them to sign up for a postal vote. It soon became clear that all those on the list were elderly and mainly housebound. I was told to help them fill in the forms and collect them so they could be sent off...
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 17:30
  #10937 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,694
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Years ago, when I was working for our local SDP - Liberal Alliance candidate in an election campaign, I was given a list of names and addresses and told to try and get them to sign up for a postal vote. It soon became clear that all those on the list were elderly and mainly housebound. I was told to help them fill in the forms and collect them so they could be sent off...
Doesn't surprise me. When you've got a system, which both my wife and I could take advantage of, where we have to fill out the postal vote forms on behalf of our respective parents, as neither for various reasons are capable of doing so. We don't, we ask them who they want to vote for and complete the ballot accordingly. I'm sure that all parties, Tory, Labour, LibDem, Brexit are more than capable of knowing who the vulnerable (easily persuaded) are and target them. It's a lax system that is ripe for abuse; and from what has been reported, is indeed widely abused.

Apart from for stopping the whole postal voting system, which would be unfair on those incapable of getting to a polling station, it's difficult to know how best to curb the problem. Perhaps election officers visiting each home allocated a postal vote and making sure the wishes of the elector are being fairly represented. Cost would astronomical, and I doubt the man power is actually available to carry out such an exercise.

I am certainly in favour of photo ID being required to vote in person. I really can't understand why Labour are so against it.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 18:50
  #10938 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Thanks folks for those - hard to believe - informations.
When one considers it's with this "system" that the whole Brexit affair was initiated, and that some Brexiteers insist on "democratic vote", "will of the people", it makes you wonder...
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:19
  #10939 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
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Just a thought, if the voting system is so open to 'inconsistencies', one would have thought that the referendum result would have been a good win for the remain side, especially when one considers the assumption in the past that the leave voter is not very bright, so surely any thoughts of corrupting the voting system in favour of leave would be beyond them.
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Old 14th Oct 2019, 19:36
  #10940 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
Just a thought, if the voting system is so open to 'inconsistencies', one would have thought that the referendum result would have been a good win for the remain side, especially when one considers the assumption in the past that the leave voter is not very bright, so surely any thoughts of corrupting the voting system in favour of leave would be beyond them.
How tortuous^^!
On the contrary, daft people are more easily cunned into voting against common sense, especially with "officers" visiting them and filling the paperwork for them ;-)
And BTW, you can be at the same time stupid and yet cunning, just look at some present heads of state in the Anglo-Saxon world.
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