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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:06
  #10841 (permalink)  
 
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Or as John Crace (Guardian political sketch writer) has put it:

I’m often asked if it’s easier to be a sketch writer now that the absurd has become the norm. I actually find it increasingly difficult to see the funny side of anything. Rather I feel like I have become a stenographer failing to keep pace with events.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:23
  #10842 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
ORAC...you is back ! Did you survive unscathed when strolling the fragrant streets of Heaven we wonder or were you overawed to be in such close proximity to the collective concentration of those who have a vision of the UK which may not be shared by the rest of us.

But the big question,, is, how you travelled there. Tis not the done thing to hop on a "National Express " coach to Chorlton St bus station, even if it is just round the corner, when attending such a prestigious event and shurely you didn't wish to subject yourself to the misery of the M6 etc, which leaves the train and those glorious views from Stockport viaduct....... and the back end of Longsight, as you approach the City.

We await, as always, your impartial analysis , exclusive to JB !, as to your perception of how the event went,
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:24
  #10843 (permalink)  
 
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A significant proportion of British people are fed up of the liberal agenda that has been pushed for the past two decades or more. There is genuine anger and frustration from both sides of the traditional political spectrum. Labour heartland areas in the north of England are full of socially conservative people who dislike immigrants, would support bringing back hanging and the birch, are suspicious of "alternative" lifestyles and same sex marriage etc. It is hardly surprising that these people are frustrated and angry having felt unrepresented by their politicians for years, and even more so post-referendum after being characterised as ignorant, ill-informed bigoted racists.

Rest assured that your ex-partners will remember how you trampled, maligned and annoyed them for a looong time
The thing is that the people of the UK have never bought into the European project. I'd suggest that a majority of us have never considered ourselves European. We have no interest in learning anybody else's language. Culturally we have very little in common with the other EU countries. We're happy to trade with our European "partners" but culturally we have far more in common with our Commonwealth friends. If the EU wants to try to make life difficult for the UK post-Brexit, we must be prepared to retaliate in kind.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:28
  #10844 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Interestingly the latest poll has Lib Dems moving ahead of Labour. At 23 % they are now on the brink of a serious game changing breakthrough. Another couple of percentage points and we will be looking at 100 plus seats.
Interesting indeed.

If one party had an absolute majority the Lib Dem would have more say but what if no party had an absolute majority?

We have had coalition parties to assure a Governing majority, a Government whose power has been constrained by the minor one, but what is minor was large?

What would happen if the Lib Dem with 100 seats became floating voters; a true cross party?

​​​​Support the budget, but only if the Government compromised.
Support the opposition if both disagreed with a bill.
No power if the opposition agreed with the Government, OK unlikely.

Quite novel in British politics.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:37
  #10845 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
A significant proportion of British people are fed up of the liberal agenda that has been pushed for the past two decades or more. There is genuine anger and frustration from both sides of the traditional political spectrum. Labour heartland areas in the north of England are full of socially conservative people who dislike immigrants, would support bringing back hanging and the birch, are suspicious of "alternative" lifestyles and same sex marriage etc. It is hardly surprising that these people are frustrated and angry having felt unrepresented by their politicians for years, and even more so post-referendum after being characterised as ignorant, ill-informed bigoted racists.



The thing is that the people of the UK have never bought into the European project. I'd suggest that a majority of us have never considered ourselves European. We have no interest in learning anybody else's language. Culturally we have very little in common with the other EU countries. We're happy to trade with our European "partners" but culturally we have far more in common with our Commonwealth friends. If the EU wants to try to make life difficult for the UK post-Brexit, we must be prepared to retaliate in kind.
Phew...Well that ticked a lot of boxes, hope you feel better for it..

"A significant proportion of British people are fed up of the liberal agenda that has been pushed for the past two decades or more"

By the politicians in Westminster, where we have had a Tory or Tory/lib coalition Government for almost one of those decades.


"The thing is that the people of the UK have never bought into the European project.".

What, all of them?

" I'd suggest that a majority of us have never considered ourselves European. We have no interest in learning anybody else's language."

Glad you chucked the word "majority" in there, again it would be unfortunate if you gave the opinion all Brits shared your opinion on considering themselves as being European (whatever that means) or that you were claiming all Brits had no interest in learning a foreign language..

"If the EU wants to try to make life difficult for the UK post-Brexit, we must be prepared to retaliate in kind."

Darn, I'm being a bit slow this AM - you are Mark Francois and I claim my 5 euros..
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:52
  #10846 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.businessinsider.com/british-dont-think-they-are-european-2016-4?r=US&IR=T

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47334374

The first link is a survey conducted prior to the referendum, so it's a tad out of date. That said, I don't think that there's any evidence that anti-European sentiment has diminished since the referendum. The second is from this year showing that uptake of foreign languages in schools is on a downward trend and has been for some time.

I think what easily forgotten is that England (outside London) is a socially conservative, inward looking country.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 09:15
  #10847 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
Culturally we have very little in common with the other EU countries. We're happy to trade with our European "partners" but culturally we have far more in common with our Commonwealth friends.
Minor detail about those commonwealth “friends”. The majority of them don’t have that same warm fuzzy feeling towards England that their former masters expect them to be great full for.

https://m.dw.com/en/india-the-eu-and...rld/a-47126604

Im sure all those socially conservative people outside London are desperate to welcome their new Indian neighbours en-masse.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 09:26
  #10848 (permalink)  
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Wiggy, I think he is more right than wrong. My mother in law ticks all those boxes. She is now of an age that she can be accutely embarrassing. A number of years ago we were in a London pub having lunch. A black Londoner came up from the kitchen. She stopped eating and we had to leave. Curiously she accepts Indian and foreign stewards on a cruise ship, but then they aren't immigrants. She thinks all police are good - not just British police. Then there is the war.

Anyone under about 50 will not have experienced the Cold War. Under 40 and the Falklands is almost History. Maastricht and Lisbon are foreign places that many would be hard pressed to place on a map, assuming they knew which country or where that country is.

We generally deride many Americans ' knowledge, but don't underestimate the mind set ​​and knowledge of many in the UK.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 09:39
  #10849 (permalink)  
 
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Interestingly the latest poll has Lib Dems moving ahead of Labour. At 23 % they are now on the brink of a serious game changing breakthrough.
The Libs (I refuse to use the Dem part anymore) are currently enjoying the support of the Labour remainers. Swinson is acting like it's all down to her but once Brexit happens and we start to see benefits they will be judged very harshly for their anti-democracy stance. A political party trying to gain votes by refusing to honour a previous result has no future long term. People still remember the tuition fee saga.

It will go back to just being an irrelevant party for beardy wierdies with their fold up bikes and WI women.


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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 09:49
  #10850 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Fragrant? It poured with rain the whole time......
.
You were west of the Pennines.
Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
...

I have my doubts because of infrastructure - and I don’t mean just sewers, water etc, but also schools, doctors surgeries, dentists etc.
That is a huge problem with a lot of the planning applications. Those near me will be (are?) putting a huge number of cars onto roads that just cannot cope. There has been absolutely no planning for improvements (dualling?) to those roads to be able to cope and when those roads are eventually improved, the road-works disruptions with that already increased traffic load will jam everything up. Nobody will be able to get to those schools, doctors surgeries, dentists, etc., because the roads will be gridlocked. There is a lack of 'joined up thinking' in local government.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 09:59
  #10851 (permalink)  
 
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Labour heartland areas in the north of England are full of socially conservative people who dislike immigrants
Wiggy, I think he is more right than wrong.
As a northerner I don't recognise that at all. Immigration was happening in the North long before it was fashionable with the liberal crowd in London. It's normal to have third or fourth generations now with thick northern accents and mixed race couples are commonplace. Their fathers & grandfathers came here to work hard and they are proud of both their heritage and their British lifestyle.

I don't think many of the young lefties who constantly throw around the words racist and fascist realise that a lot of the complaints about high levels of immigration come from these very people. Most see immigration as a good thing but question the high numbers and complete lack of controls that are creating ghettos and non-English speaking communities rife with modern slavery and a complete unwillingness to entertain the 'multi-culturalism' we are led to believe it is all about.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 10:14
  #10852 (permalink)  
 
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Pfeffel was clearly hoping that the EU would give his withdrawal bill short shrift. That they have not done so raises many potential questions for him. Bernard Jenkin appeared to be very lukewarm on R4 today. Strange that we have not yet heard from Nige. As this bill is little different from the one thrown out three times I would expect the Brexits to be at the barricades.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 10:42
  #10853 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by felixflyer View Post
The Libs (I refuse to use the Dem part anymore) are currently enjoying the support of the Labour remainers. Swinson is acting like it's all down to her but once Brexit happens and we start to see benefits they will be judged very harshly for their anti-democracy stance. A political party trying to gain votes by refusing to honour a previous result has no future long term. People still remember the tuition fee saga.

It will go back to just being an irrelevant party for beardy wierdies with their fold up bikes and WI women.
No they don't. That was the previous Liberals. She is a new broom.
From her present position she could step back to a 4th Referendum. With a caretaker PM and the steady change in the polls, anything could happen.
Don't discount the disillusioned Tories who won't vote Labour (unless it were the nice David Milliband). Then the young who have not been engagedso far. The next GE is about nothing but Brexit.
The stark: Leave without a deal (now)/Remain.
Fold up bikes are now the order of the day.
The WI was once the domain of the Tories.
If there is a referendum reversal you can't cry foul.
​​​​​Then Brexit would be forgotten.
Your argument only works post Brexit but we are not there yet.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 10:58
  #10854 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by felixflyer View Post
... Most see immigration as a good thing but question the high numbers and complete lack of controls that are creating ghettos and non-English speaking communities rife with modern slavery and a complete unwillingness to entertain the 'multi-culturalism' we are led to believe it is all about.
That is exactly the problem with the present 'immigration' system that has been in place for far too long. (And the first seven words of that quote should be emphasised.) Yet attempts to bring some common sense into the system is seen by some on here as "declaring war on immigrants" (and then hiding away when challenged on what they mean by that comment).
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 11:29
  #10855 (permalink)  
 
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I really thought that there was NOTHING else in the Brexit debacle which could surprise me ... and then a previously unnoticed stone is disturbed and out comes an expressed viewpoint which cries out for black shirts and jackboots!
This country has more than enough citizens who revel in the slime of chauvinism (in its original meaning). They have managed to gather for mutual comfort under the banners of one traditional and one lunatic fringe Party. They attempt to exert their malign influence on those who are unable to comprehend just what is being done to them . Hanging?, birch? ... you missed out child prostitution, death sentences for sheep stealing, child chimney sweeps and, best of all, public executions. I'm afraid that even in this, now, benighted apology for a country, you are unlikely to be satisfied. However, if you REALLY feel that strongly, I understand our major trading partner in the Middle East could probably provide - no jackboots, unfortunately! and a few deleted expletives!
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 11:45
  #10856 (permalink)  
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CJ, is that really you or has someone stolen your nom de plume?
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 11:47
  #10857 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
That is exactly the problem with the present 'immigration' system that has been in place for far too long. (And the first seven words of that quote should be emphasised.) Yet attempts to bring some common sense into the system is seen by some on here as "declaring war on immigrants" (and then hiding away when challenged on what they mean by that comment).
Out of interest:

1. What do you think the present "immigration system" is with respect to the UK?
2. What is this "common sense" you want to bring in?
3. Are you of the opinion that the "ghettos" and non-English speaking areas felixflyer are the fault of the EU, the result of successive UK Government policies over many decades, or are down to some other reason?
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 11:56
  #10858 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
A significant proportion of British people are fed up of the liberal agenda that has been pushed for the past two decades or more. There is genuine anger and frustration from both sides of the traditional political spectrum. Labour heartland areas in the north of England are full of socially conservative people who dislike immigrants, would support bringing back hanging and the birch, are suspicious of "alternative" lifestyles and same sex marriage etc. It is hardly surprising that these people are frustrated and angry having felt unrepresented by their politicians for years, and even more so post-referendum after being characterised as ignorant, ill-informed bigoted racists.



The thing is that the people of the UK have never bought into the European project. I'd suggest that a majority of us have never considered ourselves European. We have no interest in learning anybody else's language. Culturally we have very little in common with the other EU countries. We're happy to trade with our European "partners" but culturally we have far more in common with our Commonwealth friends. If the EU wants to try to make life difficult for the UK post-Brexit, we must be prepared to retaliate in kind.
One think that you certainly have in common with people who express the ideas you represent in your post is taking it upon yourself to speak for other people. I’m British and agree with pretty much nothing in your post. I recognise the views you represent. I grew up with them. It wasn’t a nicer world. It was in many respects dark and chauvinistic. If I had a quid for every nasty little conversation reflecting your views (you know, the ones peppered with “Hitler didn’t get it all wrong you know“), I‘d have been retired before the age of thirty.

People who think the birch, hanging and being generally being more protectionist will make Britain a better place are like chess players who can only think 1 move ahead. They haven’t thought it through. If you want a less tolerant world, one in which ruthless discipline is employed to enforce more conservative social norms, why not join ISIS? You can have one of those quids towards your air fare from me. The last think Britain needs is facist apologists. Or alt-right social media disrupters in the pay of god-knows-who.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 12:07
  #10859 (permalink)  
 
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PN _ c'est moi, indeed!
I can absorb just so much output from the 'swamp' and counter with, what I hope, is a reasoned viewpoint but those expressed sentiments, to which I reacted, are, to me, so vile, so unthinking of any aspect of the 'common good', that I had to respond! I am only too well aware that these people exist and their 'enthusiasms' are shared (although, hopefully in limited numbers) but to accept such outpourings WITHOUT response is, possibly, to allow a repeat of events nearly a century ago!
I offer apologies to any who feel offended but suggest, in that case, a little self-consultation might be in order.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 12:14
  #10860 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Pfeffel was clearly hoping that the EU would give his withdrawal bill short shrift. That they have not done so raises many potential questions for him. Bernard Jenkin appeared to be very lukewarm on R4 today. Strange that we have not yet heard from Nige. As this bill is little different from the one thrown out three times I would expect the Brexits to be at the barricades.
It seems quite different to me as my understanding it is essentially leaving the CU and Single Market (except NI where the alignment would remain) and adopting an FTA over time with the EU. That is not the May deal I think.
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