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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 25th Sep 2019, 14:43
  #10601 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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In the meanwhile, just observing the mess your "constitutional" decisions brought upon your heads - and ours.
I'm not sure what impact our constitution has on someone living in the French Alps.

Yet again, why not be more specific as to what those "constitutional conventions" might be ?
I don't know how it could be clearer. Once again, this isn't just my view; it's evidently the view of the two most senior judges in England and Wales (The Lord Chief Justice and The Master of the Rolls), The Attorney General and the Scottish Advocate General, both of whom are of course lawyers of great seniority.

So the Queen could decide which court has which jurisdiction ? What would we not hear if she intervened !
I'm not even sure what point you're attempting to make here. The case was heard in the high court by three of the most senior judges in England and Wales, including the head of the judiciary.

When and if you decide to get yourself a modern democratic constitution, I'll read it with great interest.
There is spirited debate about whether there is a need for a written constitution. It is an issue that has been and will continue to be grappled with by constitutional lawyers. There are strong arguments on both sides, made by legal scholars far more qualified than I am to comment (some of whom taught me public law many years ago). However, I'd say that the mere fact that the Supreme Court made the ruling it did should categorically rebut any suggestion that the UK is not modern and democratic, with real judicial checks on executive power.

You clearly do not understand the UK legal system, in much the same way that I don't claim to understand the French civil law system. As I don't understand your system, I wouldn't choose to comment on it and expose my obvious ignorance.

Hmmm... If PM misuses his powers who checks?
Parliament!! It has the power to pass legislation covering any matter. I think that the prorogation here was clearly a decision made for political gain. However, it is for Parliament to legislate and set statutory limits on the length and/ or reasons for prorogation if it wants to limit the executive's power to prorogue Parliament. The courts would then uphold this legislation in the event that it wasn't followed. It has never been the judiciary's role to take on the law making power of Parliament. That is fundamental to the concept of the separation of powers. Indeed, several MPs and the Attorney General suggested today in The Commons that legislation was likely to be brought forward in future on the subject of prorogation. Regardless of that, the principle has now been established that the courts can intervene in matters previously considered by long standing convention to be reserved to Parliament or the executive.

Last edited by akindofmagic; 25th Sep 2019 at 14:58.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 14:53
  #10602 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
The UK legal and political system has performed perfectly adequately for centuries without a written constitution. However, if the judiciary as a whole takes its lead from the Supreme Court (as it must under the doctrine of stare decisis) and is emboldened to pursue a judicially activist approach, greatly increased statutory intervention is likely to be required. Whether that means a written constitution is for m'learned friends to determine.
Surely not, that is a Parliamentary decision. Parliament makes the laws, the judiciary apply them.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 15:01
  #10603 (permalink)  
 
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Surely not, that is a Parliamentary decision. Parliament makes the laws, the judiciary apply them.
Ultimately yes. However, such a fundamental change to the constitutional order will by necessity be led by lawyers. eg. through the Law Commission.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 15:08
  #10604 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
I'm not sure what impact our constitution has on someone living in the French Alps.
Self-centered commentary, with maybe the slightest trace of x***phobia...But what would someone living in the Alps know ;-)
There's a world beyond Albion's shores, sir.
400-500 million people are being impacted and will be due to the self-serving antics of your country.

Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
I wouldn't choose to comment on it and expose my obvious ignorance.
And yet you wrote about not knowing the impact...
As to opposing some "most senior judges" with your own Supreme Court and calling other people ignorant, well...;-)




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Old 25th Sep 2019, 15:17
  #10605 (permalink)  
 
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Self-centered commentary, with maybe the slightest trace of x***phobia...But what would someone living in the Alps know ;-)
Yet again, this is not about Brexit. The Supreme Court said as much in its judgment. Hence we're discussing it on the UK politics thread rather than the dedicated Brexit thread. This is about a fundamental change to the established constitutional order in the UK. How does that affect someone living in the French Alps?

As to opposing some "most senior judges" with your own Supreme Court and calling other people ignorant, well...;-)
I genuinely don't understand your point and/or question.

The law (especially this area) is extremely complicated. If it wasn't complicated, David Pannick and James Eadie wouldn't be multi-millionaires. It is hardly surprising that I, in common with many practicing and academic members of the legal profession, strongly disagree with the Supreme Court's decision in this case.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 15:33
  #10606 (permalink)  
 
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I'm a remainer reconciled to leaving. I'm happy to share the advice the leavers constantly give me. You lost, get over it.

CG
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 15:38
  #10607 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
. How does that affect someone living in the French Alps?

Without wishing to offend I do find that a strange comment.

Can't speak for Fly Airprt but there are plenty of non- UK residents, some living in the French Alps, who for professional, family, financial reasons and whatever else are discovering this whole issue very much does effect them.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 15:40
  #10608 (permalink)  
 
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I'm a remainer reconciled to leaving. I'm happy to share the advice the leavers constantly give me. You lost, get over it.
Once again: the issue of prorogation is decidedly minor in this case. Hell...Brexit is a minor issue by comparison. This is not a matter of winning or losing.

This is THE landmark constitutional law decision in the last 50 years. Textbooks will have to be re-written. The way the legislature, executive and judiciary work together has fundamentally changed on the basis of one Supreme Court judgment. I'm not sure exactly who you think has "lost" here and by extension who has therefore "won".

Can't speak for Fly Airprt but there are plenty of non- UK residents, some living in the French Alps, who for professional, family, financial reasons and whatever else are discovering this whole issue very much does effect them.
Which issue though? I completely accept that Brexit has an effect beyond the UK's borders. However, and while realising I'm labouring the point, this case was NOT about Brexit. It was not even really about prorogation. It was about the court's jurisdiction to intervene in ministerial decisions. It was fundamentally about the scope of judicial review. That is very much an internal issue for the UK.

Brexiteers and Conservative voters should be delighted by this judgment because it plays into the narrative of people vs. establishment that will in all likelihood play a big part in seeing a convincing Conservative majority returned at the inevitable election, thereby making a no deal Brexit far more likely. However much this judgment ultimately may lead to a result that I am very much in favour of, it doesn't change my opinion that it is bad law and is being recognised as such within the legal profession.

Last edited by akindofmagic; 25th Sep 2019 at 15:51.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 16:13
  #10609 (permalink)  
 
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UK charity The Public Law Project (PLP) provided some of the key legal advice for this case. The advice, written by Tom de la Mare and Daniel Cashman of Blackstone Chambers, and overseen by Alison Pickup from PLP, was provided 'pro bono publico', in keeping with fellow Blackstonian Lord Pannick's pro bono services to Gina Miller.

https://publiclawproject.org.uk/wp-c...n-for-UKSC.pdf
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 18:18
  #10610 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post

This is THE landmark constitutional law decision in the last 50 years. Textbooks will have to be re-written. The way the legislature, executive and judiciary work together has fundamentally changed on the basis of one Supreme Court judgment. I'm not sure exactly who you think has "lost" here and by extension who has therefore "won".



Which issue though? I completely accept that Brexit has an effect beyond the UK's borders. However, and while realising I'm labouring the point, this case was NOT about Brexit. It was not even really about prorogation. It was about the court's jurisdiction to intervene in ministerial decisions. It was fundamentally about the scope of judicial review. That is very much an internal issue for the UK.

Brexiteers and Conservative voters should be delighted by this judgment because it plays into the narrative of people vs. establishment that will in all likelihood play a big part in seeing a convincing Conservative majority returned at the inevitable election, thereby making a no deal Brexit far more likely. However much this judgment ultimately may lead to a result that I am very much in favour of, it doesn't change my opinion that it is bad law and is being recognised as such within the legal profession.


Your last point is already covered by an existing law. The law of unintended consequences.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 18:27
  #10611 (permalink)  
 
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The UK has now entered the world of American politics where every decision of the executive can be taken to court. In the last couple of years the courts in America have ruled, mostly adversely for political reasons, on executive actions. Not even the Supreme Court but circuit courts in states have stopped government in it tracks. At this rate you will end up having lower courts decide what the government can or cannot do.

Essentially by their rulings the courts have made the law rather than acted within it.

Between the fixed date election act and the interference with prorogation the PM has lost two essential powers and the current mess in parliament is the unforeseen consequence. Looks like the PM's right to call an election was not so silly after all.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 21:47
  #10612 (permalink)  
 
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.Aihkio said...".That is the definition of a dictator, almost."
one of the British Monarch`s remaining powers is the ability to remove the Prime Minister.


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Old 25th Sep 2019, 22:09
  #10613 (permalink)  
 
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So we can still hope she'll use it when really needed.
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 22:36
  #10614 (permalink)  
 
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Disgraceful behaviour by Pfeffel tonight. Bullying female members and encouraging violence. I can see the strategy. It is to appeal to Brexit voting Wetherspoons habitués. It might work a bit, but it's a further step along the road to worshipping hooliganism.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 00:26
  #10615 (permalink)  
 
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 00:39
  #10616 (permalink)  
 
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However much this judgment ultimately may lead to a result that I am very much in favour of, it doesn't change my opinion that it is bad law and is being recognised as such within the legal profession.

But as mentioned at the time a majority government could if desired bring about a law preventing this happening again and limiting the judicial scope in these situations.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 08:30
  #10617 (permalink)  
 
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Effluent Man: Totally agree with your comment re Johnson's behaviour in the House last night. When a female member appeals to him to moderate his language as she is in fear of a ratcheting up of threats of sexual assault and even death, and he responds by writing off her complaints as "a load of humbug", he demonstrates quite clearly what a bloody cowboy he really is. Totally unfit to lead a country. Meanwhile, as I write this, James Cleverly is on Radio 4, giving the most bumbling, ducking and diving interview I have heard in a long time.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 09:13
  #10618 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Disgraceful behaviour by Pfeffel tonight. Bullying female members and encouraging violence. I can see the strategy. It is to appeal to Brexit voting Wetherspoons habitués. It might work a bit, but it's a further step along the road to worshipping hooliganism.
I also agree, I watched the whole thing live on TV. Depressing. Parliament reduced to a bad Grange Hill like soap opera. It's going to be a long road back to any sort of 'intelligent' debate and a working system.*
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 09:57
  #10619 (permalink)  
 
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So they all rushed back for that yesterday.

They choose to interpret things as they see it from their "side" and then scream at anyone who disagrees. Just seemed like everyone wanted to score playground points.

Bercow welcomed back everyone to their place of work but what did they actually achieve yesterday.

Cannot any of them see that no progress has been made over the last 3 years?
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 10:08
  #10620 (permalink)  
 
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They were all as bad as each other, to simply single out one person is wrong, the problem I see with Parliament is it is no longer about getting a deal or a no deal, it is about each one of them fighting for their jobs, what the heck is the point in having a slanging match all day over the proroguing of Parliament? it serves no purpose what so ever, it has been deemed unlawful and has been cancelled, have a ten minutes debate on it saying it was wrong etc and then move on to actually running the Country instead of acting like the crowd at a football match ( and I do the crowd at the match a diservice.)

I agree with the Conservatives, this needs a General Election to sort it out, the results as no doubt Brexit will be a part of the electioneering will bring about in essence a second referendum on the subject, because at the moment there isn't a Government that can run the Country, it has had that power stripped from it by losing its majority.
I also see why the opposition are against it, they are likely to get slaughtered at the polls, as no doubt the independant polls they all run are showing they are going to lose seats. but that again is putting themselves at the front of their argument, not the Country.
But that is simply what it needs, and election to break the deadlock, and before you go on about crashing out etc, they had the opportunity a week ago to have and hold an election before that happens and they chose not too using the poor excuse in my eyes that the Conservatives would not honour the date, something they stood up and said they would. They had a deal put to them, they chose not to accept that either.
A referendum is NOT the way forward, that would simply bring about further calls for another if it swung the other way and where would you stop, a fifth or sixth one? and as for the peoples representatives chamber etc.... we have one one already, it's called Parliament.
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