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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 5th Dec 2018, 10:50
  #921 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=ATNotts;10328347]If that isn't a large hint at a U turn, or at least a sharp bend in the road I don't know what is. Was he speaking with the authority of the PM? Who knows? The PM I suppose!

The trouble is that he was speaking in support of Leave with a harder Brexit. I am coming to the conclusion that, despite their lofty positions many of these people are not too bright.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:09
  #922 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Important to note whilst yesterday was an enjoyable & well deserved comeuppance for a shambolic government prone to anti democratic reflexes via pulling fast ones left, right & centre, the UK will still leave the EU on the 29th of March next year. I see nothing to halt that as we speak.
Well unless the PM and her cabinet decide to call a time out, which I seem to recall the EU would be happy to go along with on the basis that we were going to do something constructive with it, rather than just kick the can down the road. I recall two of the events that would be reason enough a re general election or a new referendum. The former would be a total waste of time, and achieve nothing; the latter less of a waste of time, could perhaps achieve something.

I was struck this morning by Chakrabati and Raab both under the misguided impression that the EU will suddenly reopen negotiations with the UK if Corbyn or May went back to them. Deluded, stupid - I really don't know which?
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:19
  #923 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The trouble is that he was speaking in support of Leave with a harder Brexit. I am coming to the conclusion that, despite their lofty positions many of these people are not too bright.
Well they are bright enough to ensure they have their own secure financial arrangements in place, often in the EU.
So that when their duped voters realise the consequences of a hard Brexit they themselves will not be the ones to suffer.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:20
  #924 (permalink)  
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On more than one occasion the EU (can't remember which body) has a divice when approaching a deadline; they stop the clock. We may well leave Europe on the 29th, but when will that be?
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:31
  #925 (permalink)  
 
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The one thing that may stop the madness of a no deal Brexit will be that the next scheduled General election is 2022, and by then the electorate will have had a belly full of redundancies, recession and falling incomes - especially those pensioners (the majority) who will find their money purchase pensions worth considerably less, and will give the incumbent government the kind of kicking that will make Major's 1997 rout look like a picnic. And who turns out in an election? The pensioners!

Being the politician that May is she won't want that to happen, anyone that follows her (Johnson, Raab or whoever else) will be similarly aware of the consequences.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:38
  #926 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with the rout scenario, and I say that as a long term Labour voter, us that we have no party capable of delivering a rout. This isn't 1997 and I will not over for a party led by Corbyn.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:43
  #927 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The problem with the rout scenario, and I say that as a long term Labour voter, us that we have no party capable of delivering a rout. This isn't 1997 and I will not over for a party led by Corbyn.
But I expect you'd vote for Labour led by Keir Starmer.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:49
  #928 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
But I expect you'd vote for Labour led by Keir Starmer.
He would make Labour a deal more electable than it is at present, but as usual with Labour, it depends upon who is pulling his strings.

The electorate generally won't be too worried about whoever is leading Labour after three years of the mother of all recessions though. They may very well consider that even Corbyn and his cronies couldn't make the country any worse off in that situation.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:49
  #929 (permalink)  
 
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Yes I would, and I guess that you might too. In exactly the same way that I might consider voting for a Dominic Grieve led Tory party in preference to. Corbyn. In the end national interest would trump party loyalty.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 11:59
  #930 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Yes I would, and I guess that you might too. In exactly the same way that I might consider voting for a Dominic Grieve led Tory party in preference to. Corbyn. In the end national interest would trump party loyalty.
I have never voted Labour in a general election, but if Labour supported remaining in the EU and they had a reasonable chance of achieving it then of course I would do so. No question.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 12:12
  #931 (permalink)  
 
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Labour's position on Brexit is as clear as mud, Keir Starmer won't be the leader any time soon. If it's unicorns we're talking, this is unicorns a go-go. Meanwhile, the AG's legal advice is out & the hot takes are coming in. Infinite backstop anyone?
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 12:58
  #932 (permalink)  
 
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Agree with Spogget, Labour appear to try please everyone by being none commital and not telling the public where they stand, one should imagine if they ever elected that front bench into power the UK would nose dive.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 13:10
  #933 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Agree with Spogget, Labour appear to try please everyone by being none commital and not telling the public where they stand, one should imagine if they ever elected that front bench into power the UK would nose dive.
I dread a Labour government as much as anyone, particularly if Corbyn was still in power. But I'd rather the nose dive of Labour in the EU than the crash of a hard brexit under Re-Smogg
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 15:31
  #934 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I dread a Labour government as much as anyone, particularly if Corbyn was still in power. But I'd rather the nose dive of Labour in the EU than the crash of a hard brexit under Re-Smogg
Wow, so a nose dive under Labour with the EU would be worse than leaving the EU under WTO rules.

I suppose you think the EU will bale out the UK when it's economy is decimated by Labour who would have three years before you could get them out and then whoever took over would have a mountain to climb to try and recover from that disaster, which would take far longer to recover from than leaving under WTO rules would, and that is assuming there would actually be an actual economic disaster from that outcome.

It is nave beyond belief that if the referendum was ignored and Art 50 was revoked, or another referendum gave remain a small margin victory, that the EU would not take some form of delight in milking the UK for everything they can get away with to punish us for trying, we would end up a bigger laughing stock than people claim we are now, and no country would take us seriously with any deals, any wonder the EU is happy with 'The Deal' as they get to cherry pick the best of the UK without us being able to do anything about it, and still pay for the privilege.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 15:45
  #935 (permalink)  
 
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Yesterday's news from Brussels seemingly escaped you?!!

Anyway que sera sera. We didn't bail out Greece thanks to our lovely, cherry picking, hand made, bespoke EU membership, excluding us from the Euro. Happy days.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 15:47
  #936 (permalink)  
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Ouch.......

Andrew Gimson’s PMQs sketch: Can it be that Corbyn thinks a “coup de grace” is some kind of fancy ice cream?

Maybe Jeremy Corbyn thinks a “coup de grace” is an exotic ice cream, which true socialists should not administer.

The Government is reeling from its defeats last night on Brexit, one of which, on the contempt motion, was inflicted by his colleague Sir Keir Starmer.

Does the Leader of the Opposition seek to follow up these successes by harrying the discombobulated Prime Minister? Does he recognise that this is an extraordinary week, when her parliamentary weakness has been exposed in the most humiliating way? Does he ridicule her in front of her own backbenchers, and make them embarrassed to support her? Does he seek to avert the danger that she could yet turn her weaknesses into a strength? Of course not. Corbyn loyally avoids the whole subject. He offers her a rest from Brexit, a chance to regain her composure. It is hard not to conclude that he is trying to prop the Prime Minister up.

Attacks on her could, of course, misfire, and prompt her own troops to rally round and defend her. But Corbyn’s duty is to find some way of demonstrating that she has become indefensible. Instead he talked about Universal Credit. That is a worthy subject, but also, just now, a culpable evasion of the great issues which confront not just the Conservative Party but the nation.

As a result of Corbyn’s dereliction of duty, Prime Minister’s Questions was a complete anti-climax. Corbyn paraded his virtuous concern about poverty, and various other MPs paraded their virtuous concern about various other issues. Politics in these circumstances becomes a barren series of postures. The House was boisterous, but Corbyn gave it nothing to be boisterous about.

Ian Blackford, for the Scottish Nationalists, suggested “the Prime Minister has been misleading the House inadvertently or otherwise”, was ordered by the Speaker to rephrase this in order to avoid any “imputation of dishonour”, and did not really get any further. But Blackford is only allowed two questions, and is not auditioning to be the next Prime Minister.

Perhaps Corbyn, who each week manages to waste six questions, fears May might be replaced by someone who shows him up as a third-rate parliamentarian?

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Old 5th Dec 2018, 17:03
  #937 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
Wow, so a nose dive under Labour with the EU would be worse than leaving the EU under WTO rules.

I suppose you think the EU will bale out the UK when it's economy is decimated by Labour who would have three years before you could get them out and then whoever took over would have a mountain to climb to try and recover from that disaster, which would take far longer to recover from than leaving under WTO rules would, and that is assuming there would actually be an actual economic disaster from that outcome.

It is nave beyond belief that if the referendum was ignored and Art 50 was revoked, or another referendum gave remain a small margin victory, that the EU would not take some form of delight in milking the UK for everything they can get away with to punish us for trying, we would end up a bigger laughing stock than people claim we are now, and no country would take us seriously with any deals, any wonder the EU is happy with 'The Deal' as they get to cherry pick the best of the UK without us being able to do anything about it, and still pay for the privilege.
We've recovered from Labour's mismanagement before - remember the "I'm afraid there is no money" letter? We could do so again if we had to.

If we crash out of the EU on your beloved WTO rules - which isn't quite the instant fix you seem to think - the resulting chaos will very likely result in a Labour government as people grasp for something, anything, that promises a relief. So we still get their nose dive anyway.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 17:31
  #938 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
We've recovered from Labour's mismanagement before - remember the "I'm afraid there is no money" letter? We could do so again if we had to.

If we crash out of the EU on your beloved WTO rules - which isn't quite the instant fix you seem to think - the resulting chaos will very likely result in a Labour government as people grasp for something, anything, that promises a relief. So we still get their nose dive anyway.
Ahh, that makes it ok, we recovered before from Labour economic disaster, so that would be a lesser disaster and that by default means you don't believe we could also recover from any Brexit disaster equally as well, or quicker.

Again it is assumption, not verifiable fact, that under WTO rules, or hard Brexit as some like to call it, that this would be the economic disaster that the remain side keep stating, just because remain say it will be so, does not make it so, again, we will recover from any 'disaster' from Brexit and in the long term be better off, and you are right that if Brexit ends up an economic disaster, I have no doubt that even though they will make any economic issues much worse than they were, that Labour will end up in power.

What would that make the people who vote for Labour, under those circumstances be; stupid, xenophobic, senile old farts living in the past, who don't know what they voted for, or young, immature people who have no life skills experience to understand the complexities of adult life and the future, who believe the fairy tale cash bribes of Labour to entice this age group to vote for them.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 17:36
  #939 (permalink)  
 
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If Corbyn gets in, I will have to find my Huguenot ancestor's passport to get some passport - any one - that lets me escape.
Anyway, if Labour gets in, Corbyn's leadership of the party will be ended by Milne. He will do a Red Ken, and sack Corbyn, get himself made a peer and Lord Milne will become the UK PM.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 17:38
  #940 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post

Again it is assumption, not verifiable fact, that under WTO rules, or hard Brexit as some like to call it, that this would be the economic disaster that the remain side keep stating, just because remain say it will be so, does not make it so, again, we will recover from any 'disaster' from Brexit and in the long term be better off, and you are right that if Brexit ends up an economic disaster, I have no doubt that even though they will make any economic issues much worse than they were, that Labour will end up in power.
Happy to take this on receipt of any credible economic analysis that concludes no deal & crashing into WTO is a reasonable long term strategy.
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