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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 4th Dec 2018, 18:22
  #901 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Government defeated three times in an hour. How much more can May take?
She'll keep going until the men in white coats drag her away. And as they do so she'll be telling them they're wrong.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 18:44
  #902 (permalink)  
 
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I watched the contempt debate. The first thing I noticed was the absence of T. May. Then, throughout the debate, the government repeatedly tried to steer the discussion off course, referring umpteen times to how disclosing the legal advice from the A.G. might compromise national security. I lost count of how many times this was trotted out as an excuse. The time for the government to come up with a "national security" umbrella was 13th November when the humble address was laid before the House. The issue was summed up thus
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give directions that the following papers be laid before Parliament: any legal advice in full, including that provided by the Attorney General, on the proposed withdrawal agreement on the terms of the UKs departure from the European Union including the Northern Ireland backstop and framework for a future relationship between the UK and the European Union.
This was agreed to, with no opposition from the government. Note the lack of "National Security" as an issue. The government agreed to the wording above and failed to adhere to the terms of the motion.
How on earth they thought they could get away with today's performance is unfathomable.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 20:01
  #903 (permalink)  
 
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Why they didn't just publish the legal advice I don't know. It was obvious to the meanest intelligence that they were going to be forced to do it, you have to know which battles to fight. The recent decision to allow motions of amendment, which was a recent change of heart on the part of the Government, seems to me to have been designed to allow Dominic Grieve's amendment specifically to take no deal off the table and allow the whips to use the line that it's May's deal or no Brexit thus bringing them into line. I suspect the vote will be a lot closer than a lot of commentators think.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 20:12
  #904 (permalink)  
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...uslim-policies

Nigel Farage has quit UKIP after 25 years, saying the party he led to its greatest election successes was now unrecognisable because of the “fixation” with the anti-Muslim policies of its leader, Gerard Batten.

Farage, who took UKIP to third place by number of votes in the 2015 election and significantly shaped the ground for the Brexit referendum, said he was dismayed by Batten’s policies and his decision to Appoint the far-ight campaigner Tommy Robinson as an adviser. Writing in The Daily Telegraph Farage condemned Batten’s decision to throw Ukip’s support behind an anti-Brexit demonstration in London on Sunday organised by Robinson and his associates, saying it was likely to “inspire violence and thuggish behaviour”.

“My heart sinks as I reflect on the idea that they may be seen by some as representative of the cause for which I have campaigned for so much of my adult life,” wrote Farage, who regularly contributes a column to the newspaper. “The very idea of Tommy Robinson being at the centre of the Brexit debate is too awful to contemplate. And so, with a heavy heart, and after all my years of devotion to the party, I am leaving UKIP today. There is a huge space for a Brexit party in British politics, but it won’t be filled by UKIP.”......
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 21:10
  #905 (permalink)  
 
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I'm no fan of Farage (rhymes with garage) but I salute him for this gesture.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 21:17
  #906 (permalink)  

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".....I salute him for this gesture."

Hardly!

A rat leaving an unseaworthy vessel.

Mac
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 21:19
  #907 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...uslim-policies

Nigel Farage has quit UKIP after 25 years, saying the party he led to its greatest election successes was now unrecognisable because of the “fixation” with the anti-Muslim policies of its leader, Gerard Batten.

Farage, who took UKIP to third place by number of votes in the 2015 election and significantly shaped the ground for the Brexit referendum, said he was dismayed by Batten’s policies and his decision to Appoint the far-ight campaigner Tommy Robinson as an adviser. Writing in The Daily Telegraph Farage condemned Batten’s decision to throw Ukip’s support behind an anti-Brexit demonstration in London on Sunday organised by Robinson and his associates, saying it was likely to “inspire violence and thuggish behaviour”.

“My heart sinks as I reflect on the idea that they may be seen by some as representative of the cause for which I have campaigned for so much of my adult life,” wrote Farage, who regularly contributes a column to the newspaper. “The very idea of Tommy Robinson being at the centre of the Brexit debate is too awful to contemplate. And so, with a heavy heart, and after all my years of devotion to the party, I am leaving UKIP today. There is a huge space for a Brexit party in British politics, but it won’t be filled by UKIP.”......

I strongly suspect that the only reason the "F word" joined UKIP was that he couldn't climb the greasy pole in the Conservatives. Now it's yet more evidence that he is trying to distance himself from the almighty "F up" that his political rhetoric & blatant ideological dogma has helped to create. Slimy little man, he has been very well remunerated for 20 years by an organisation he professes to despise. Not Gentlemanly behaviour in my book.
Just my opinion
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 21:31
  #908 (permalink)  
 
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If anyone doesn't think Farage is a grubby little fascist entirely on a par with Yaxley-Lennon & co, they haven't been paying attention to practically everything he's ever done. This is, as iwith everything he does, about Farage. My guess is someone with lots of money thinks him, Johnson & Rees-Mogg are worth backing in an effort to press on with their perverse s**tshow of an agenda.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 21:39
  #909 (permalink)  
 
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Let's see ...
  • CJEU opinion
  • government in contempt of parliament
  • other government defeats in the Commons, lost track of them all
  • squabbles and splits in fascist party
  • PV petition hits 100,000
and the day isn't over yet. I won't, of course, start singing "The Day that Brexit Died" yet, 'cos I'm too superstitious for that.

Edit to add:

Knew I'd forgotten something:
  • the farcical TV "debate" on the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation between two Brexit supporters got binned.

Last edited by Gertrude the Wombat; 4th Dec 2018 at 21:55.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 08:12
  #910 (permalink)  
 
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"Businesses have had a good couple of years to get used to the idea that the UK was leaving the EU and should have been actively planning accordin for all of the possible options."

Have you now, or ever, lived in the real world? How could any business make preparations for a hard Brexit in just two years? Do you have any idea at all of the complexities of international trade, and the bureaucracy that accompanies it, apart of course from trading with the EU, where goods are seamlessly transported from one country to another.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 08:14
  #911 (permalink)  
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I am bemused by the excitement over the passing of Dominic Grieve’s amendment to the bill to allow MOs to debate select an alternate “option B”.

Ignoring the fact that the Clerk of the House has stated it is not binding on the government - if the bill is voted down, as it is expected to be by between 50-250 votes, then whole bill is defeated and null and void, including any amendments made.

I nite rumours in the politic news that TM may be getting ready to withdraw the bill before a violent and her return to Brussel’s in the next few days - and attempt to get the agreementbtweaked before re-presenting it in January.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 08:17
  #912 (permalink)  
 
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Then we have Theresa May suggesting that either MPs support her version of Brexit, or perhaps no Brexit at all will take place. No UK government could survive the constitutional crisis such a decision would cause. Basically it would completely subvert democracy, or what passes for it within the UK.
There would be no constitution crisis, since our system is a parliamentary democracy where parliament is sovereign, the referendum was, constitutionally, advisory. HOWEVER, there would be considerable electoral fallout among leave voters, and very possibly an irretrievable schism in Conservative party, perhaps also in Labour. Politically a safer option would be to hold a new referendum, based on the deal as it stands, or remain. Given the results of recent exercises in democracy there's absolutely no guarantee of the outcome, but the legislation to hold it must include specifically a clause that makes the outcome mandatory on parliament, if that be possible constitutionally.

The so called hard Brexit which will happen on the 29th of March if no other deal or arrangements are in place is being portraited as the worst possible option, by Theresa May, but it is the only option that allows a clean break from the EU and its institutions. The reality is that this option is the one that most people who voted leave thought they were voting for.
Anyone who seriously believed that a "clean break" would be possible, given the requirement to protect the UK from losing industries and business that base themselves here to take advantage of the EU Single Market and Customs union were living in a parallel universe. The result of the negotiations were always going to have to include close ties with the EU, and were going to be the simplest negotiation ever.


Businesses have had a good couple of years to get used to the idea that the UK was leaving the EU and should have been actively planning accordin for all of the possible options. Hard Brexit may have an immediate short term financial hit, but in the longer term it is the cheapest and best opportunity for the UK to thrive in a global economy. If the country sinks, we at least will have the benefit of knowing that there is no one to blame but ourselves.
Businesses have it all on making profits, without spending pots of money they may well not have to guard against a myriad potential outcomes with absolutely no guidance from HMG, who themselves have done little tangible to prepare for a cliff edge Brexit. To suggest that the UK would thrive outside the EU is pure conjecture, every forecast, apart from those by mavericks such as Patrick Minford, show that whatever the outcome, the UK would long term be better of in the EU than outside it, and also that Mrs. May's agreement is the least worst outcome. If the country sinks, then hopefully there won't be enough room in the lifeboats for leave voters, though it's clear that many of the most prominent proponents of Brexit won't be on the good ship UK as it goes down - they've already made their contingencies.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 08:30
  #913 (permalink)  
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I thought I was voting to leave or stay. I don't think I was aware that the transition would not start until the Government acted on Article 50.

I think many thought that on 17th June that we were out and certainly neither side chose to talk about the transition should there be a vote to leave. Nor was it shown that there would be substantial ongoing payments to the EU.

I think we are now where we should have been before we voted. We are now better, if not properly, informed. The argument for a new referendum is persuasive but I would argue that a new election is not.

The present Parliament has no clear non-party division for in/out and there is no certainty that a MPs in a new Parliament would do as their constituents wanted.

It is a mess.

Rather than trying to find a can to kick down the road, the neater solution would be to grab the life buoy and kick the ball in to touch.

Mr. Speaker, I smell a rat. I see him floating in the air. But mark me, sir, I will nip him in the bud."


Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 5th Dec 2018 at 08:42.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 08:44
  #914 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I am bemused by the excitement over the passing of Dominic Grieve’s amendment to the bill to allow MOs to debate select an alternate “option B”.

Ignoring the fact that the Clerk of the House has stated it is not binding on the government - if the bill is voted down, as it is expected to be by between 50-250 votes, then whole bill is defeated and null and void, including any amendments made.

If you cast your mind back, Grieve had wanted a meaningful vote on the final deal at the end of the Parliamentary debate precisely in order to avoid a catastrophic no deal ( Gouli: Bridge for sale, special deal just for you) The government brought him in & told him it would do what he wanted, but their compromise put the 'meaningful' vote in neutral terms meaning MP's couldn't amend it I.e. stop it or have any real say in the process. Grieve's new amendment ensured MP's could amend the vote & yesterday, Parliament backed it decisively, meaning the No deal catastrophe beloved of a fringe of loony right wing disaster Tories died once & for all.

The takeaway we should be focusing on in this f**ktangular of a government is it cannot be trusted to a) honour it's commitments to it's own members I.e. Grieve & b) consider itself subordinate to Parliament, which is a nice way of saying dictatorship. Time & again it has used tactics to override Parliament from the Henry VIII orders to ignoring Labour's humble address vote last month on publishing the AG's legal advice by simply not turning up & subsequently ignoring it.

This may all seem very dry & procedural but it goes to the heart of our constitution. You cannot have a government publicly declaring that it's carrying out the will of the people but privately ignoring the same people's democratically elected representatives in a representative democracy. We have never in our long history seen a government held in contempt of Parliament & if that doesn't give people pause for thought, then I don't know what will.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 09:26
  #915 (permalink)  
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Grieve's new amendment ensured MP's could amend the vote & yesterday, Parliament backed it decisively, meaning the No deal catastrophe beloved of a fringe of loony right wing disaster Tories died once & for all
Hmmm - no.

If the bill is voted down, it is null and void, including any amendments.

The Previous A50 bill takes the UK out of the EU at the end f March unless it is amended or repealed - which would necessitate the government bringing it to the HoC, which the PM will not do. She will also not bring forward an alternate bill.

Pending a new PM or government, if the present bill is defeated the UK is still heading for a no-deal exit.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 09:31
  #916 (permalink)  
 
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I distinctly heard an ex government chief whip on the wireless this morning say: "When new information becomes available it is reasonable to reassess your position in the light of that." In view of the huge amount of information that has come to light since June 2016 it must therefore be entirely reasonable to out the question back to the electorate.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 09:35
  #917 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
I distinctly heard an ex government chief whip on the wireless this morning say: "When new information becomes available it is reasonable to reassess your position in the light of that." In view of the huge amount of information that has come to light since June 2016 it must therefore be entirely reasonable to out the question back to the electorate.
If that isn't a large hint at a U turn, or at least a sharp bend in the road I don't know what is. Was he speaking with the authority of the PM? Who knows? The PM I suppose!

Mrs. May is sounding more and more like King Canute trying to stop the tide coming in with her "we're leaving the EU on 29th March" mantra - every time I hear her say it I become less convinced!
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 09:40
  #918 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Hmmm - no.

If the bill is voted down, it is null and void, including any amendments.

The Previous A50 bill takes the UK out of the EU at the end f March unless it is amended or repealed - which would necessitate the government bringing it to the HoC, which the PM will not do. She will also not bring forward an alternate bill.

Pending a new PM or government, if the present bill is defeated the UK is still heading for a no-deal exit.
Ummm no.


Grieve's amendment ensured parliament has a say on the WA as presented by HMG.If May fails to get her deal through parliament, she is under a statutory obligation to make a statement to the House within a set number of days. And that statement will be followed by a vote that is now amendable.That means MPs can use it to demand the government extends Article 50, or holds a second referendum, or revokes the Article 50 notification altogether. That won't be enough on its own. Legislation would be required after that. But this is how they can start the change of course.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 09:45
  #919 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Ummm no.


Grieve's amendment ensured parliament has a say on the WA as presented by HMG.If May fails to get her deal through parliament, she is under a statutory obligation to make a statement to the House within a set number of days. And that statement will be followed by a vote that is now amendable.That means MPs can use it to demand the government extends Article 50, or holds a second referendum, or revokes the Article 50 notification altogether. That won't be enough on its own. Legislation would be required after that. But this is how they can start the change of course.
You'll never get a true Brexiteer to let the (uncomfortable) truth get in the way of a good story.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 09:50
  #920 (permalink)  
 
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Important to note whilst yesterday was an enjoyable & well deserved comeuppance for a shambolic government prone to anti democratic reflexes via pulling fast ones left, right & centre, the UK will still leave the EU on the 29th of March next year. I see nothing to halt that as we speak.
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