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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 3rd Dec 2018, 10:58
  #861 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC etc,

That is all fine but with one major exception, after we leave the EU all this becomes irrelevant and Airbus can and will make provision for the manufacture and support of security modules in Spain and Germany for future Galileo use by the EU who own the IP and have decided to prevent UK access to the classified military standard element of the system.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:19
  #862 (permalink)  
 
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The argument that the poor and those on benefits don't have anything to lose is a specious one. In the case of a No Deal and a drop of 9% in GNP then what would happen is that a new austerity program would have to emerge and the implications of this for that bottom tranche in society would be dire. There would be a real possibility of benefit cuts and a government such as this one would be desperate not to lose the support of the elderly so the bulk of the cuts would fall on working age people and smaller groups such as the disabled and the mentally ill. This will be the reality of a No Deal scenario.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:48
  #863 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Ok I got one bit wrong, I meant to say support increases not falls away, but I don't think the respondents picked up on that. They were querying the point that I intended to make. My point was that the flood of low wage foreign workers isn't the fault of the EU, it's the fault of our race to the bottom economy that encourages such practices. This type of employment needs regulation. "Self employment" is so often merely a device to avoid costs. If regulation forced the payment of a genuine minimum wage then real self employed drivers would move into the market where they currently can't compete against 65p a drop employers.
That makes more sense. I suspect 65p/drop is generous. A friend, a white -collar worker of no-fixed ability was a Hermes driver for a time. Once in a routine he knew his patch so the work was onerous but not entirely unrewarding. When he stopped, one of his clients thought it a good pension too up job. He didn't last the week. His first day was 14 hours as his 'district ' extended beyond his local area knowledge. His replacement was a proper young white van man (more agile). Our present driver has an estate car and it is loaded to max every day!
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 12:02
  #864 (permalink)  
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OK, the last few posts where that it is the BOF against the SF.

Put it another way:

We 60-100 year olds voted to JOIN the EU.
You 20-60 year olds have never experienced life before the EU.

You Remainers seem to be saying that those who voted join and the uneducated now vote to leave. Is that a reasonable summary?

Now can I ask correspondents arguing strongly for one side or other to declare their demographic when they post? Start with O(ver) or U(nder) and add E if relevant. If your previous is correct , AT, AS and EM are U whereas Nip is O. Right or Wrong?

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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 12:43
  #865 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
Mobs rampaging through the streets of Paris. The election of extreme right wing politicians in Spain for the first time since General Franco. A resurgence of extremist and nationalist parties across the whole of Europe. Brexit may be divisive for the UK, but a failure to leave the EU will see such events repeated here.
FWIW the original intent of the "Gilet Jaunes" ( certainly as stated in some of the flyers/leaflets I've seen) before the f.. wits got involved seems to have been that many people, especially in the regions, had had enough of austerity and that they wanted to send a massive message of "up yours" from the regions to the metropolitan/political tax raising elite in the capital...just perhaps motives that might sound familiar to some here.

I'm not sure I'd say the Paris riots as being evidence of a resurgence of nationalism, but of course as in any country there are always the headbangers waiting in the wings to take advantage.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 12:44
  #866 (permalink)  
 
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As an Over but tolerably well educated pensionner, I worry about who these Leaver politicians truly represent. They are not Democrats, that is for sure. I suspect some are at best "Useful idiots" acting for the Russian plotters, who truly want the EU to have problems.

Rees - I am very very rich , thank you, - Mogg, is clearly no democrat. 60% of his constituency voted remain. He clearly knows so much more/better than his constituents.

As to all this age stuff, in a new referendum, all the remainers have to do is get the Young to vote, as they did not bother last time.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 12:53
  #867 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
Rees - I am very very rich , thank you, - Mogg, is clearly no democrat. 60% of his constituency voted remain. He clearly knows so much more/better than his constituents.
.
Well they dont seem to mind as at last years election they re-elected him with a increased majority.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 14:28
  #868 (permalink)  
 
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Our constituency voted to leave, but our MP is backing remain.............well, he is backing May, which is the same.........

Last edited by goofer3; 3rd Dec 2018 at 14:30. Reason: add a bit
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 15:09
  #869 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
OK, the last few posts where that it is the BOF against the SF.

Put it another way:

We 60-100 year olds voted to JOIN the EU.
You 20-60 year olds have never experienced life before the EU.

You Remainers seem to be saying that those who voted join and the uneducated now vote to leave. Is that a reasonable summary?

Now can I ask correspondents arguing strongly for one side or other to declare their demographic when they post? Start with O(ver) or U(nder) and add E if relevant. If your previous is correct , AT, AS and EM are U whereas Nip is O. Right or Wrong?
Sorry PN, well under.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 18:46
  #870 (permalink)  
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Nip, no need to apologise. I think it goes to disprove the old=out, young=in. Within my extended family the split is almost a perfect 50-50 across the whole age spectrum. I am sure their views haven't changed either.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 07:48
  #871 (permalink)  
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Preliminary judgement (recommendation from Advicate General to the court) from the EUCJ on question asked by Scottish MSP/MEPs handed down at 0830 this morning.

Opinion is that the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 declaration.

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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:01
  #872 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Preliminary judgement (recommendation from Advicate General to the court) from the EUCJ on question asked by Scottish MSP/MEPs handed down at 0830 this morning.

Opinion is that the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 declaration.

That little bombshell gives the PM the option of doing a total U-turn if she were minded, or for that matter any future government if the can is kicked far enough down the road.

Question is; is she so minded, or is she hooked on the "will of the people"? I reckon a not so veiled threat ahead of the vote on Tuesday next could potentially swing the vote her way.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:10
  #873 (permalink)  
 
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Wow....even whilst still being in the EU the U.K. can do things without the say so if the Germans/French / politburo in Brussels (delete as applicable) .

Who’d have thunk it
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:13
  #874 (permalink)  
 
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AG has given an opinion, not a ruling, despite it being reported as such by multiple outlets, especially the BBC which gives an indication how shallow EU matters are understood by the media in general. The ECJ does not have to follow the AG's advice & indeed doesn't always do so. Further, the opinion is nuanced. States UK must enact legislation if it wished to revoke and must act in good faith I.e. cannot do so merely to strengthen a negotiating hand for example. In any event the ECJ's decision is not here yet so if one objection is this allows whoever is in power to arbitrarily boot A50 into the weeds, the obvious answer is wait & see what the court rules.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:14
  #875 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Wow....even whilst still being in the EU the U.K. can do things without the say so if the Germans/French / politburo in Brussels (delete as applicable) .

Who’d have thunk it
Yes wiggy I think they might just have something to say about it.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:29
  #876 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
AG has given an opinion, not a ruling, despite it being reported as such by multiple outlets, especially the BBC which gives an indication how shallow EU matters are understood by the media in general. The ECJ does not have to follow the AG's advice & indeed doesn't always do so. Further, the opinion is nuanced. States UK must enact legislation if it wished to revoke and must act in good faith I.e. cannot do so merely to strengthen a negotiating hand for example. In any event the ECJ's decision is not here yet so if one objection is this allows whoever is in power to arbitrarily boot A50 into the weeds, the obvious answer is wait & see what the court rules.
In fairness to the BBC, on the BBC News Channel bulletin at 09:00 this morning they did report that the AG's opinion is usually followed, and did say that a UK act of parliament is required to legally cancel Art.50. The EU isn't going to be especially happy about the ruling, if it is confirmed by the court and I would expect the EU to amend the wording of Art.50 so future potential leavers don't have an easy option for cancelling it, having wasted months, and in the case of the UK, years of time when they could have been doing something more productive.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:36
  #877 (permalink)  
 
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Fairness schmairness. They need to get this kind of thing right.


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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:56
  #878 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Fairness schmairness. They need to get this kind of thing right.


What they reported in the bulletin was rather more detailed than those two tweets. As so often Laurak needs to think before she launches into her reports, to camera or on twitter - I don't really know how she got the job; she's not anything like the calibre of Robinson or his predecessors in the Political Editor's role - gender balance possibly comes to mind?
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 09:06
  #879 (permalink)  
 
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Does the BBC honestly think that ANY British government is going to toss aside the result of a national referendum, even with act of parliament.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 09:10
  #880 (permalink)  
 
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wiggy, try dropping VAT levels and see how far you get....
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