Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 2nd Dec 2018, 17:05
  #841 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I can accept that Brexiteers will stretch and distort the truth in order to try and persuade others.

What is difficult to understand is that they actually believe this rubbish themselves.
I think the phrase pot calling kettle comes to mind - remainers are as bad if not worse, with the PM being the worse of the lot.
paulc is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2018, 18:52
  #842 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 59
For a Remainer the PM is going to extraordinary lengths to complete Brexit. I will ask once again, if the Leave camp are so utterly convinced that nobody has changed their minds then sorting this out is simple. We have Referendum 2 and anyone who disputes the outcome of that is going to be out on a limb. As for the education argument it's easy. As you move down the social classes support for Brexit falls away inexorably until in E, the most uneducated support is strongest. But the answer to this isn't Brexit it's reform of employment laws. Currently white van delivery men are working for half the minimum wage due to piecework rates. A very large number are immigrants and or illegals.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 05:38
  #843 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 1
I write from deep in the countryside of Rajasthan, which is in India. Conversation over the past weekend with a senior Indian official of charm and influence elicited the comment that the increasingly omnipotent behaviour of Teresa May was beginning to make an argument for the concept that the empowerment of women should be subject to certain legal restraints.
Of course I could not agree with such a sentiment, having long believed that female empowerment was the ultimate solution to much of the ills of the world. I nonetheless thought that such a consequent viewpoint of the prime minister's behaviour in a once upon time dominion might be of interest to your readers.

Yours sincerely,

cc
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 06:44
  #844 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: n/a
Posts: 15
Look who surfaced over the weekend to calm fears that project fear is becoming project reality.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidDavisMP/status/1069156000027066368

Thank you David. Now get back in your box.

The most frightening aspect of the referendum result is not the fact that it will make most people poorer, but how the process was forced through by the likes of Davis, Fox, Redwood & Duncan Smith. Tory failures relegated to the political wilderness until UKIP revived their careers.

Note carefully how one of the most dangerous MP's in the House also came to the surface over the weekend. The other Theresa.

It is an astonishing detail that even at this critical hour, the general public remain passive.

I'm withdrawing half my cash savings as a precaution. High street banks are in a precarious position. The industry has never fully recovered from 2008. Add to that a possible run on Sterling and my plan B sounds a lot healthier than Davis's plan A.

It may be an overeaction, but at least it is a decision that can be reversed, unlike reacting to a breaking point poster by murdering an MP, or driving the country over a cliff.
sfm818 is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 08:54
  #845 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,622
EM, I admit I am as confused as Gault:

As you move down the social classes support for Brexit falls away inexorably until in E, the most uneducated support is strongest. But the answer to this isn't Brexit it's reform of employment laws. Currently white van delivery men are working for half the minimum wage due to piecework rates. A very large number are immigrants and or illegals.


Is your statement 're Brexit supported in a poll? If it is, what is the connection between immigrant white van drivers and other E workers? Surely immigration control will reduce the labour pool and create an upward pressure on wages?

As an aside, subjectively half the deliveries are by immigrant drivers.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 09:20
  #846 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 334
Originally Posted by sfm818 View Post
Look who surfaced over the weekend to calm fears that project fear is becoming project reality.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidDavisMP/status/1069156000027066368

Thank you David. Now get back in your box.

The most frightening aspect of the referendum result is not the fact that it will make most people poorer, but how the process was forced through by the likes of Davis, Fox, Redwood & Duncan Smith. Tory failures relegated to the political wilderness until UKIP revived their careers.
Pushed through by financially independent politicians, oblivious to the money worries of the poorer people they persuaded to vote for the Red Bus.
Let's not forget Ree Smog either, with his cash pile stashed away in Ireland. Will that qualify his many children for Irish passports?
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 09:31
  #847 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,653
As an aside, subjectively half the deliveries are by immigrant drivers.
That rather depends on who you're talking about. If it's Yodel, then nigh on 100%, if it's UPS nearer 10%!!

Ask yourself, who pays decent wages, invests in training and offers a decent level of service, and which one offers a poor unreliable service. (I don't / haven't worked for either!!).
ATNotts is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 10:25
  #848 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 59
Ok I got one bit wrong, I meant to say support increases not falls away, but I don't think the respondents picked up on that. They were querying the point that I intended to make. My point was that the flood of low wage foreign workers isn't the fault of the EU, it's the fault of our race to the bottom economy that encourages such practices. This type of employment needs regulation. "Self employment" is so often merely a device to avoid costs. If regulation forced the payment of a genuine minimum wage then real self employed drivers would move into the market where they currently can't compete against 65p a drop employers.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 10:29
  #849 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 59
The Channel 4 poll of 20,086 respondents is available online and clearly shows the demographic breakdown of the vote. It is the old, the poor and the badly educated that comprise the bulk of the Leave cohort. These useful idiots, voting to impoverish themselves are Boris' and Rees-Mong's saviours.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 10:55
  #850 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: God's Country
Posts: 115
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The Channel 4 poll of 20,086 respondents is available online and clearly shows the demographic breakdown of the vote. It is the old, the poor and the badly educated that comprise the bulk of the Leave cohort. These useful idiots, voting to impoverish themselves are Boris' and Rees-Mong's saviours.
So by your reasoning and many of the remainers posting here, those people should not have a vote? They should be told what is good for them and carry on just managing. Well judging by the way the EU is heading, it won't be long before they decide that people with your superior intellect shouldn't have a say in your own future. Will you be so submissive then?
The Nip is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 10:56
  #851 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,653
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The Channel 4 poll of 20,086 respondents is available online and clearly shows the demographic breakdown of the vote. It is the old, the poor and the badly educated that comprise the bulk of the Leave cohort. These useful idiots, voting to impoverish themselves are Boris' and Rees-Mong's saviours.
It's not entirely surprising.

The old will be able to hark back to the "halcyon days" of the 1940s, Dunkirk spirit, how we "won the war" and the dying embers of the empire.

The poor and / or the badly educated have often had little nor no involvement with Europe other than the poorly paid migrants they started to meet in their local towns in the past 15 or so years, the European shops, and people speaking "foreign" - along with the annual visit to a UK operated hotel in Spain (or wherever else) where they can live with other Brits in a Brits abroad environment with little will to engage with ordinary people within their host country - and given a lamentable lack of language skills, little opportunity to do so. This makes that cohort more susceptible to the tactics of the more extreme elements, and antics of an inherently biased UK print media.

Nothing will change among the poor / badly educated were there to be another referendum; the "old" may to some extent have died since June 2016, but I honestly think for a new referendum to produce anything more decisive, say 55 / 45 split, a new cohort (those who were 16 two years ago) to become motivated and vote. If there were to be a new referendum I won't passively stand by, as I did last time, but get off my fat @rse and campaign. Another 52 / 48 split, again either way, would achieve nothing in terms of healing the societal splits.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:09
  #852 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 59
The Nip. No of course they should have a vote. But this time they would be allowed to use it with the benefit of the knowledge that using it in the same way will bring them a lower standard of living and not £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS. I also assume that this time a sharp eye will be kept on who us campaigning, how much they spend and where the money comes from. I don't think that it is in the interest of any of us that people such as Aaron Banks funded by extraneous sources sways the result with the help of companies such as Cambridge Analytica. That is the real loss of sovereignty.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:13
  #853 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
The insinuation behind the old & uneducated ballsing up the conutry's future is unpersuasive. You either have a universal franchise or you don't & if you don't, then there be dragons.

Equally stuff like this:

Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
Well judging by the way the EU is heading, it won't be long before they decide that people with your superior intellect shouldn't have a say in your own future. Will you be so submissive then?
Is swivel eyed Ukippery unless you wish to evidence it of course. I can wait.

Serious question though, can anyone now seriously, hand on heart say this whole quitting business is logical & represents the best path forward for the UK? Where is the evidence of benefit? All I see is a PM trying very hard to keep information out of the hands of Parliament, as did David Davis before her & hilariously ham fistedly too. (Yay sovereignty) I see warnings from industry everywhere I look, I see the sheer folly of replicating a GPS system at enormous cost for no logical reason & a cumulative piling up of jobs & people leaving the UK.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:21
  #854 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: God's Country
Posts: 115
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The Nip. No of course they should have a vote. But this time they would be allowed to use it with the benefit of the knowledge that using it in the same way will bring them a lower standard of living and not £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS. I also assume that this time a sharp eye will be kept on who us campaigning, how much they spend and where the money comes from. I don't think that it is in the interest of any of us that people such as Aaron Banks funded by extraneous sources sways the result with the help of companies such as Cambridge Analytica. That is the real loss of sovereignty.
The last referendum was set up by a remain Gov't supporting remain. I have no idea about what money was spent by some of those you mention in your post. The Gov't of the day spent £9m telling the country that remain was the best option. It still did not make more people vote remain. As has been explained, the red bus, £350m, a very clever bit of advertising (spin). It grabbed headlines. It didn't say that £350 WOULD be spent solely on the NHS. As it happens the PM is going to spend this anyway. (allegedly).

And to the point in another post. If you are poor and are on benefits and haven't got much, I don't think that there is too much left to lose. Those people possibly voted to give the Gov't a good kicking for ignoring their concerns and issues over the years. That is Gov'ts of all colours. IMHO of course.
The Nip is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:25
  #855 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,653
The insinuation behind the old & uneducated ballsing up the conutry's future is unpersuasive. You either have a universal franchise or you don't & if you don't, then there be dragons.
I don't think that anyone is actually suggesting that certain sectors of society should be excluded from voting, should they be poor, uneducated, have learning difficulties, dementia or whatever else. If it's a democracy, then everyone within the franchise gets a vote. End of. It might have been better if the franchise was broadened for issues such as the Brexit referendum, or other serious constitutional matters but that's a different argument.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:28
  #856 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Hence an unpersuasive argument. I had thought that was pretty clear, obviously not. The same applies to the idea that all the old gammons who voted out have died off & those who were 16 two years ago should now get a second vote. It ignores a glaring bit of obvious demography that one old fart is generally replaced by another.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:40
  #857 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,653
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Hence an unpersuasive argument. I had thought that was pretty clear, obviously not. The same applies to the idea that all the old gammons who voted out have died off & those who were 16 two years ago should now get a second vote. It ignores a glaring bit of obvious demography that one old fart is generally replaced by another.
I don't agree. Every year that goes by, more people who have grown up with an international, cooperative outlook get old, as inevitably those how were brought up on WW2 and it's aftermath are shuffling off their mortal coils. I started work in 1973, in logistics (freight forwarding back then), just as the UK had joined the Common Market, and spent most of my working life in an international (mainly European) trade environment until recently, and that has given me a rather different view than perhaps I would have had I been 10 years older, and worked in a line of business devoid of any day to day contact with anyone / any countries outside the UK.

Also, with the increase in the take up of high education, the lot coming in at the lower end of the electoral age range are likely to be better educated than my (I suspect possibly our) generation there is likely to be a greater inclination towards a pro European (pro globalisation) mentality. Can't prove that, but I expect there is research available that at least partly underlines it.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:47
  #858 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Norfolk
Age: 63
Posts: 3
Mobs rampaging through the streets of Paris. The election of extreme right wing politicians in Spain for the first time since General Franco. A resurgence of extremist and nationalist parties across the whole of Europe. Brexit may be divisive for the UK, but a failure to leave the EU will see such events repeated here.
G0ULI is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:52
  #859 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Whilst I agree with that & would include myself in there as someone who has both benefited from FOM and is appalled to witness a government presiding over the worst erosion of civil rights since the war, we're back to the circular argument of who voted out. The demographics are clear & two years isn't a sufficiently long period for a mass die off, even if that were the sole clinching factor, which it demonstrably wouldn't be.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:53
  #860 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 59
The only argument that counts is the one that says that the truth should be told in advance of any vote. That was the reason for me not voting in the first referendum. ( I refer to it as the first because it's clear that a second one isn't far away now)
i accept that those who voted Leave will largely do so again, although a significant number will switch for economic reasons.
i would be perfectly happy for the two referenda results to be aggregated so that only if Remain exceeds 52% the first result is quashed. If people still decide to Leave that's entirely up to them I will support that.
Effluent Man is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.