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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 1st Dec 2018, 14:30
  #801 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
So what happens if this "people's vote" happens and produces the same result?
Or, what if it turns out in favour of Remain and the EU says "bugger off, you quit, now stay quit"?
And as for the People's Vote; didn't we have one in 2017, preceded by another in 2015, 2010, 2005, 2001 and so on?
Were the UK to decide to remain, the EU has made it pretty clear that they would keep us. they are even happy for us to suspend Art. 50 whilst any exercise in democracy (referendum or general election) ran it's course.

If the result from June 16 were replicated, depending upon the question we'd either leave with May's deal or no deal. Whatever, at least the vote would have been taken knowing just what the choices are.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 14:39
  #802 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
So what happens if this "people's vote" happens and produces the same result?
Or, what if it turns out in favour of Remain and the EU says "bugger off, you quit, now stay quit"?
And as for the People's Vote; didn't we have one in 2017, preceded by another in 2015, 2010, 2005, 2001 and so on?
I think your questions mirror a lot of people's thoughts, apart from some of those who voted for remain.

There is no way having more votes is going to solve this. Many MPs from Major, Blair, Brown all had a hand in duping the public in what was meant when Maastricht, Lisbon were signed. Blair promised a Referendum, but didn't follow through on his promise. I believe they were avoiding spelling out exactly what was involved and the true direction of the EU. Probably because it would be a hard sell.

I do wonder, to clear up any doubt, if all those countries who are net contributors to the EU, held a referendum what the outcome would be. I suspect that those who are beneficiaries would vote to stay.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 14:49
  #803 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
The survey, of 20,086 people found that non voters had disproportionately moved towards Remain. In addition to this the biggest effect was that older voters had died, as would be expected. These were replaced by new voter, a stronger Remain cohort.
interesting, my older daughter is a die-hard remainer yet her younger sister is a leader. The former has lived in Cyprus and German and has a property in France. The other has worked extensively with European and other nationalites.

My wife's late father was sunk by the Germans twice and my mother in law was bombed by them. She is 93 and an ardent leaver. That those of voting age in 1973 voted to join the EU would suggest a degree of optimism but with experience now wish to leave. On the other hand those born since the 50s,ie 60 and younger have no experience of life before the EU.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 14:55
  #804 (permalink)  
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The Nip, don't forget that Greece and Italy are not happy with their budgets being criticised the central bank. Many countries want to be in the club but treasure their sovereignty too.
​​​​​
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 14:59
  #805 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
Surely it will come from the money we are already pumping into the Gallileo system?. All the UK is proposing is to copy the existing design so the expensive design and development bit is done, manufacturing a few more sets of the hardware at the factory in Surrey (which is already up and running) and launching them is going to be fairly cheap compared with creating a while new system from scratch.
Most of our investment in Galileo is already sunk and there is not so much more to be 'pumped'. Galileo is working and all but the last set of satellites are launched. Those will be paid fully by the EU because we will already have left, so no money to be saved there.

Besides which if we wish merely to copy Galileo there is the small matter of IP. Most of the existing design is owned by the EU. Would they license it, and for how much?
Since technology has advanced over the past few years, it would make sense to build to a new design, and then there are 30 satellites to be launched. May has already approved £100m just to look into the possibilities, not even to start the design.

And I trust someone has looked into the availability of suitable frequency assignments?
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 15:17
  #806 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
And I trust someone has looked into the availability of suitable frequency assignments?
Apparently someone has - I have seen several reports that there aren't any frequencies available.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 15:17
  #807 (permalink)  
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Were the UK to decide to remain, the EU has made it pretty clear that they would keep us. they are even happy for us to suspend Art. 50 whilst any exercise in democracy (referendum or general election) ran it's course.
Not true.

Those who wish to remain make much of the fact that the costs of leaving were not known, and that the EU will demand a hefty price in the forthcoming negotiations. Equally, however, the costs of being allowed to withdraw A50 are not known.

The legal advice to the EU parliament is that, as with an extension of A50, permission to withdraw A50 will require unanimous consent from the other 27 nations, which will also require tortuous negotiation and a hefty price. The EU Budget Commissioner has already stated that the UK would lose its rebate. What else would be demanded?

It would seem logical, therefore, that rather than any new referenda being held quickly, it would need A50 to be delayed until the cost was known and an informed choice could be made between the cost of leaving and the cost of remaining.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKCN1MM1PV

However, just as no majority would seem to exist for method of leaving, I doubt any majority in the HoC could be found for the format of a new referendum in either the number of questions, the wording of the questions, the method for counting and those being allowed to vote.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 15:46
  #808 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
The legal advice to the EU parliament is that ... permission to withdraw A50 will require unanimous consent from the other 27 nations
Other legal advice is different, Which is why it was taken to court. Judgement is expected soon, but hasn't been given yet.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 16:15
  #809 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Not true.

.
Those who would rely on logic & legality overlook what is a political question. This folly has been repeatedly offered for rescinding at the highest levels & I find it an egregious form of barrack room lawyering to point at various forms of legal advice to shore up a predetermined position. A better use of one's time would be to direct ire at the vague wording of the original clause along with the vague terms of the referendum, the vague terms of the withdrawal agreement & the vague terms of what a bunch of morons wrote on the side of a red bus.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 16:27
  #810 (permalink)  
 
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BAengineer,

And there you have the problem that is the STRATEGIC disaster that is Brexit. That factory in Surrey that you mention is owned 100% by Airbus and so the satellite work there is most probably going to be heading to Spain, France or Germany post Brexit. The Galileo technology may well be largely British but the companies in the UK that designed, developed and manufactured it are most certainly NOT, they are all foreign owned, mainly by EU countries.
We may have the folk in the UK who could develop a replacement but we will have to set the companies up from scratch to do it, how often does that happen?
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 16:48
  #811 (permalink)  
 
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Once you know that a particular technology works, it is a relatively simple and cheap process to duplicate the system, as evidenced by China. It doesn't matter that SST is majority owned by EADS. The staff and knowledge are based in Britain. Moving manufacturing abroad is unlikely to prevent an independent UK GPS system from being dveloped if necessary. All the proven physical parts are now available off the shelf and software engineering is all that is necessary to develop a functioning system. Fortunately the UK is still a world leader when it comes to software development.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 16:53
  #812 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
BAengineer,

And there you have the problem that is the STRATEGIC disaster that is Brexit. That factory in Surrey that you mention is owned 100% by Airbus and so the satellite work there is most probably going to be heading to Spain, France or Germany post Brexit. The Galileo technology may well be largely British but the companies in the UK that designed, developed and manufactured it are most certainly NOT, they are all foreign owned, mainly by EU countries.
We may have the folk in the UK who could develop a replacement but we will have to set the companies up from scratch to do it, how often does that happen?
Pr00ne,

Airbus might or might not relocate. Unless you know for certain. Isn't the UK one of those countries that own part of the programme? Are you saying none of the companies are British? I can honestly say I have no idea how everything is divided up. I haven't read/seen any documents which explains these ramifications.
As a EU member, don't we own 1/27 of EU projects? Do we own 1/27 of EU real estate etc?

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Old 1st Dec 2018, 17:01
  #813 (permalink)  
 
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I seem to remember the University of Surrey is a huge player in the satellite business. I can't see that institution being EU owned! (Not yet, anyway).
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 17:30
  #814 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Most of our investment in Galileo is already sunk and there is not so much more to be 'pumped'. Galileo is working and all but the last set of satellites are launched. Those will be paid fully by the EU because we will already have left, so no money to be saved there.
So why was the EU expecting us to continue funding the program if there is no more to be spent?

Besides which if we wish merely to copy Galileo there is the small matter of IP. Most of the existing design is owned by the EU. Would they license it, and for how much?
Well if the EU want to buy us out of our share of the IP then that is more money to put towards a purely UK system

Since technology has advanced over the past few years, it would make sense to build to a new design, and then there are 30 satellites to be launched. May has already approved £100m just to look into the possibilities, not even to start the design.
I think that is a fair point - perhaps it would be better to build a system from scratch using the latest technology given the delays we have seen with Galileo. Obviously that would push up the costs but perhaps we can find another country who wants to collaborate.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 17:36
  #815 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


Pr00ne,

Airbus might or might not relocate. Unless you know for certain. Isn't the UK one of those countries that own part of the programme? Are you saying none of the companies are British? I can honestly say I have no idea how everything is divided up. I haven't read/seen any documents which explains these ramifications.
As a EU member, don't we own 1/27 of EU projects? Do we own 1/27 of EU real estate etc?
No. EU projects are owned by EU members.
Some people seem to think that the EU is splitting into 1/28 and 27/28. It is not.
​​​​​​The EU remains the EU, and in leaving it we leave behind anything that we contributed.
That's what Brexit means. It's what the majority chose
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 18:28
  #816 (permalink)  
 
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I did not vote because I couldn't make up my mind on the information available at the time. I actually went to the polling station and said to the chap handing out the voting papers that I did not know whose lies to believe, Cameron's or Boris'

in the end I put my paper in unmarked. In the last thirty months however things have become clearer. It's not a doddle to leave and do trade deals. There is no £350 million for the. NHS and it looks as if leaving without a deal will see us slide down the tubes. Now I have enough information to make a decision, not a wild guess.
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 19:28
  #817 (permalink)  
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The Times:

One of Jeremy Corbyn’s most senior frontbenchers has resigned after threatening a reporter with violence and appearing to issue false statements over her son’s conviction for drug offences......

In response to questions from a Times reporter outside her home on Friday, Osamor said she “should have come down here with a bat and smashed your face in”. She told him to “f***” off, called police after accusing him of stalking her and hurled a bucket of water at him.

On Saturday afternoon Osamor, the Labour MP for Edmonton, tweeted that she was resigning to “concentrate on supporting my family through the difficult time we have been experiencing.”

Corbyn paid tribute to Osamor in a statement. “I know that Kate will take this time to support her family, work for her constituents and support our party’s efforts to rebuild Britain from the backbenches,” he said......
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Old 1st Dec 2018, 20:30
  #818 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
I did not vote because I couldn't make up my mind on the information available at the time.I
A reasonable and logical decision. It contrasts with universal suffrage and even more so calls to reduce the voting age.

21 to 18 was reasonable given the age limit for sending someone to war. 18 to 16 may be too far. I have seen several 18 year olds, indeed one on her birthday, who certainly knew what they wanted.
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Old 2nd Dec 2018, 06:14
  #819 (permalink)  
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The Times:

Revealed: Brexit legal advice could sink Theresa May

Britain would be trapped “indefinitely” in a customs union with Brussels if MPs back Theresa May’s Brexit deal, according to leaked details of the attorney-general’s legal advice, which the government has suppressed. Senior ministers say the prime minister is refusing to publish the advice because it contains a stark passage that makes clear the UK could end up locked in a “backstop” arrangement with the European Union.

In a letter to cabinet ministers last month, the contents of which have been disclosed to The Sunday Times, Geoffrey Cox declared: “The protocol would endure indefinitely.” The government’s top law officer ruled that the only way Britain could escape the backstop would be to sign a new trade deal, which could take years. But he warned Britain could remain trapped if those talks collapsed.

The details — confirmed by three serving cabinet ministers and the former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab — will enrage Eurosceptics and are likely to harden opposition to the deal. More than 100 Tory MPs have already signalled they will oppose their own government in the crunch vote on December 11 that has left May’s premiership hanging by a thread.

Tomorrow Cox will give a statement to parliament outlining the government’s legal position in an effort to win over MPs. No 10 is expected to publish a summary of the advice but not the letter itself — a move senior ministers believe will lead to the Speaker, John Bercow, declaring the government in contempt of parliament.

Ministers say the written legal advice is far bleaker than the account Cox will give in the Commons and the verbal assessment he gave the cabinet in October. A cabinet source said: “The legal advice is very bad, which is why they don’t want anyone to see it.” Cox’s letter was so sensitive that numbered copies of the paper were taken from ministers after they had read it. “The letter was not allowed to leave the room,” a minister said.

Raab, who resigned as Brexit secretary last month, confirmed: “The legal position is clear. The backstop will last indefinitely, until it is superseded by the treaty setting out our future relationship, unless the EU allows us to exit. The EU has a clear veto, even if the future negotiations stretch on for many years, or even if they break down and there is no realistic likelihood of us reaching agreement. That’s my view as a former international lawyer, but it is consistent if not identical with all the formal advice I received.”.......


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Old 2nd Dec 2018, 07:52
  #820 (permalink)  
 
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Gertie i expect the bbc are not looking very hard or in the right places to find brexit supporters, after all there are 17.4 million of them. Given their fairly obvious position on brexit that is not a great surprise.
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