Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 15th May 2019, 07:53
  #7941 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,583
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
And curiously Brexiteers believe in democracy, except when it is suggested that a new vote is held in the light of new information. Then to have a vote is totally undemocratic.

Democracy is in the eye of the beholder!
ATNotts, quite. Surely it is antidemocratic to insist on a second vote?
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 07:58
  #7942 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,583
There is one accurate statement in TM's election notice, 'only the Conservative party can deliver Brexit.'

Why is their support so low?

Because they have signally failed so far and have a master plan of an agreement that satisfys neither renainers nor leavers, her party, Parliament, and most importantly, the EU.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 08:14
  #7943 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere flat
Posts: 105
I often wonder where "Strong and Stable" went to
goofer3 is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 08:18
  #7944 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 315
What a picture of Britain it's going to paint, when Farage’s* MEPs turn up to disrupt the new Parliament. Is this really how we want to look to the world?

*Why did my autocorrect enter Fagin?
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 08:37
  #7945 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
ATNotts, quite. Surely it is antidemocratic to insist on a second vote?
I don't believe it is, since we were sold a tissue of lies in June 2016, and there is more than a small possibility that the vote was covertly influenced by person or persons unknown, from Russia, and other sates / organsiations (the Front Nationale among others).

We now know what the terms of out exit are, they have been agreed and are non negotiable, and as an electorate we are better placed to make a judgment based on facts. Moreover our parliamentarians are collectively unable or unwilling to come to a conclusion of how Brexit should be delivered, other than that they won't accept no deal, or a customs union; nor will they vote for the agreement. They can't unilaterally revoke Art.50, that really would be undemocratic, so the only remaining option is to have that new referendum (why it is disguised as a "public vote" I really don't understand) unsatisfactory as it is.

I am not in the least bit convinced that a new referendum would result in a revocation (my preferred option), indeed I think it's more likely it would result in a confirmatory vote to leave, though I genuinely do not understand what leaving is really supposed to achieve for us socially or economically. It could however get us out of this impasse, provided the legislation were written to ensure that Parliament couldn't legally go back on the result, which was not the case back in 2015 when the first vote was legislated for.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 08:41
  #7946 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
What a picture of Britain it's going to paint, when Farage’s* MEPs turn up to disrupt the new Parliament. Is this really how we want to look to the world?

*Why did my autocorrect enter Fagin?
They can try, but they'll just wind up sitting with the extremist minority consisting of people like Urban's nationalists the FN and AfD. The EPP and Socialist groups in Strasbourg will continue to wield the real power as it is a proportional vote across the EU and the two main blocks will never ally themselves with the extremes.

How we look to the world; well that's already a given - we're a laughing stock as a result of the 2016 vote, and little is going to make that any worse.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 09:03
  #7947 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 39
Quite an interesting article here:
https://www.ecfr.eu/specials/scoreca...opean_election
It's quite long admittedly, but it describes the rise of populism and the challenges the EU will face as more anti-EU MEPs are elected.
So it's not just the UK MEPs that will be throwing the spanner in the works.
Filler Dent is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 09:40
  #7948 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,893
Meanwhile Labour renationalisation plans gather momentum, the cost of which dwarfs our EU exit bill. £62 billion for energy alone ! What should be major political debate merits a few lines on page 7. Talk about a good time to bury bad news. Where’s the money coming from Jeremy? “Price determined by parliament”.. so that’s a de-facto seizure then? Being a laughing stock is a minor issue compared with having the taps of international finance turned off.
ShotOne is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 09:44
  #7949 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: South Gloucestershire
Posts: 39
Isaac would have to add another parameter

Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
Farage also appears to unite people who normally wouldn't be united.....against him. No end to his talents.
Formally stated, Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object.

However, when the above is applied to the leave/remain situation one would have to factor in "leverage" from financial, media and other forms of vested interests from both sides.

Depends on your views of "EU-thanasia" and/or "Britain's got stagnant" I suppose.

frampton is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 09:57
  #7950 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,126
So we elarn today that is a draft withdrawal or not bill which contains alot of detail about the issue but no one is allowed to see it. Whata wonderful country we live in , secrecy and corruption (in its moral not financial sense , although there is plenty of that too) in our parliament and no adequate laws to police illegal funding and election fraud.

Bring back control , almost as nigger laugh as make Britain great again . Why cant we just be good Britain or nice Britain without hideous wealth inequalities and the privelgde that brings, a decent health service and education system , A fair legal system and a properly resourced police force , not one which only seems to appear for state visits and race hate crimes and has all but legalised burglary No pointless expenditure on weapons we can't or will never use, but more investment in cyber security and intelligence (cos thats where the threats come from these days not tanks and bombers)

We were once a 'Great' country back in the days of sailing ships and Empires but for most people it was back in the day of the Enclosures, rural and urban poverty, chlid labour, the work house and the press gang, minor crimes resulted in capital punishment or transportation . Of course Rees Mogg and Boris are all for that modified for the 21st century
pax britanica is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 10:34
  #7951 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 454
Both the draft Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration have been readily available to read for those who care to look:

Withdrawal Agreement:

https://assets.publishing.service.go..._AGREEMENT.pdf

Political Declaration:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...EB_VERSION.pdf



Exrigger is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 11:07
  #7952 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 7
ATNotts states "I don't believe it is, since we were sold a tissue of lies..."

I would suggest that you (and others) bought a tissues of lies and should accept responsibility for so doing. After all, you were listening to politicians and you know the old saying "How do you know when a politician is lying?" (for those who may not know - his mouth is moving).

For the record, I voted remain but would support the "May Deal"
Slfsfu is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 11:55
  #7953 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 15,870
Have you read post 7910 as to what you would be signing up for Sifsfu?
NutLoose is online now  
Old 15th May 2019, 12:02
  #7954 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 75
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Have you read post 7910 as to what you would be signing up for Sifsfu?
Maybe we should have a referendum whether to accept TM's proposal?
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 12:09
  #7955 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 15,870
Or even a referendum to ask if we should indeed have another referendum.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 15th May 2019, 13:10
  #7956 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,583
Originally Posted by goofer3 View Post
I often wonder where "Strong and Stable" went to
Bolted? 😀
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 15:23
  #7957 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 7
NutLoose - most of those 7910 issues are time limited and the Irish border could be solved by a unilateral decision (UK) stating that it will not have a border. If the EU are concerned about stuff entering the EU, via NI, then THEY can have their own border on the Irish side - they can then be held accountable for breaking the Good Friday Agreement. (We've been without a border for 20 years so can continue in the same fashion - it's not OUR problem it's the EU's problem.

Redwood wouldn't know a "compromise" on the EU if it slapped him in the face with a wet Kipper.

People think in absolutes and can't think 10, 20, 30 years ahead. With time things change. Take what will work now and be prepared to look at it again in the future.

Yes, I voted remain but lost and I can accept that. So, I am prepared to compromise and honour the "out" decision

The decision is to leave, we've crossed that bridge. The next (and in my mind only question) is HOW. Any 2nd referendum (which I abhor) should simply say "Do you want May's deal or no deal?" (and this from someone who voted remain)

.
Slfsfu is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 16:12
  #7958 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 75
Posts: 1,859
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 20:15
  #7959 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by Slfsfu View Post
ATNotts states "I don't believe it is, since we were sold a tissue of lies..."

I would suggest that you (and others) bought a tissues of lies and should accept responsibility for so doing. After all, you were listening to politicians and you know the old saying "How do you know when a politician is lying?" (for those who may not know - his mouth is moving).

For the record, I voted remain but would support the "May Deal"
For the record, I too, despite being an ardent remainer, would (reluctantly) accept the "May Deal" as the least worst option given that we're not going to be given a new referendum.

Sadly the wreckers in the ERG appear determined to send it crashing in the 1st week of June, as they did on the 3 previous occasions. Given the make up of the Commons, that then makes it more likely that they'll vote to kill Art.50 (a very bad option) or put it back to the people and abdicate their responsibility (the least worst option). Anyone who thinks the maths in the Commons will suddenly change if an arch Brexiteer gets hold of the reins of power is sadly mistaken. If anything, the resistance within the less extreme wing of the Tory party to such a leader may serve to make the arithmetic even worse for the Tories, and if they smell blood, Labour aren't going to rush to the aid of Johnson, Rees Mogg or any of the other ERG leaning candidates for leadership.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 15th May 2019, 20:23
  #7960 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,968
There are only a handful of ERG members who will vote against the WA, the problem is that there a vast number of Labour MPs who would vote in favour, but are under a three-line whip to vote against - as Labour put a chance to bring down the government and win a GE ahead of the interests of the country....
ORAC is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.