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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 8th May 2019, 08:06
  #7801 (permalink)  
 
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It really is amusing to see the claims that democracy ended three years ago and no one is permitted to change their mind.
There's a clear undertone of desperation that wiser minds might prevail and snatch away their dream of little England ruling the waves once again.

But you needn't worry. I can't imagine that the EU really wants to keep this bitterly divided country as a member any longer. We are more trouble to them than we are worth.

As for the the EU Elections, there never was a more pointless, unnecessary exercise.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:11
  #7802 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Yes sallyanne it undermines democracy because the first vote was taken and the people decided the fate of the Countries future path, but those elected to enact the will of the people have not carried it out, but are trying to subvert that democratic process by attempting to hold another vote to change the original result without carrying out the will of the people they were elected to represent, there was never anything in the first referendum about a soft Brexit, nor a partial Brexit or a cancelling Brexit, therefore if those elected cannot decide, the only logical route is the leave without an agreement to ensure the democratic process has been adhered to
Actually NutLoose, there was not a vote taken but a referendum was held. As I am sure that you know, a referendum is never legally binding so there is nothing to stop the government from ignoring the referendum result. There would be no legal recourse for anybody as by definition a referendum is only advisory.

Before you ask, I think that the government would be very foolish to ignore the result of the referendum. Especially after saying that they will implement the result. The Dutch government has ignored the result of a referendum in the past and it doesn’t look good on them. However legally speaking it does not undermine democracy as it wasn’t legally binding in the first place.


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Old 8th May 2019, 08:30
  #7803 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It really is amusing to see the claims that democracy ended three years ago and no one is permitted to change their mind.
There's a clear undertone of desperation that wiser minds might prevail and snatch away their dream of little England ruling the waves once again.

But you needn't worry. I can't imagine that the EU really wants to keep this bitterly divided country as a member any longer. We are more trouble to them than we are worth.

As for the the EU Elections, there never was a more pointless, unnecessary exercise.
Actually the EU elections may well be a wake up call to those in Westminster as to the mood of the Country even if pointless. When the referendum was held three years ago it was known at the time the process would take that amount of time to withdraw and the process hasn't as yet been allowed to run its course.
Remember all the parties signed up and agreed to article 50, yes people change their minds, but a lot of that has to do with the scaremongering that has been rampant in the press and parliament since the decision was made.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:41
  #7804 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Actually the EU elections may well be a wake up call to those in Westminster as to the mood of the Country even if pointless. When the referendum was held three years ago it was known at the time the process would take that amount of time to withdraw and the process hasn't as yet been allowed to run its course.
Remember all the parties signed up and agreed to article 50, yes people change their minds, but a lot of that has to do with the scaremongering that has been rampant in the press and parliament since the decision was made.
Oh really ?...well, in that case, take yer pick from any of the montage that follows when it comes to scaremongering in the press prior to the referendum.....and feel free to quantify which headlines you feel are factually correct.....and why.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fa...w=1280&bih=855
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:20
  #7805 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Actually the EU elections may well be a wake up call to those in Westminster as to the mood of the Country even if pointless. When the referendum was held three years ago it was known at the time the process would take that amount of time to withdraw and the process hasn't as yet been allowed to run its course.
Remember all the parties signed up and agreed to article 50, yes people change their minds, but a lot of that has to do with the scaremongering that has been rampant in the press and parliament since the decision was made.
Those in Westminster have already had that wake up call. In fact they have had several and ignored them all.
Each little faction is determined to get their own way, regardless of the needs of the country.

I've had a look at the list of candidates in my local constituency. Two erstwhile major parties, neither of which has a clearly stated policy of being either in or out of the EU. In an EU election FFS! And so many others to choose from that I suspect most voters will put their cross at random, or more likely stay at home. I certainly won't be wasting my time doing something that can have no effect whatever.
​​​​
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:29
  #7806 (permalink)  
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Green Party EU election launch, predictably.... held in Islington.....
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:31
  #7807 (permalink)  
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Sky News political correspondent......

https://news.sky.com/story/trumpism-...harge-11714025

Brexit: The conditions are ripe for the biggest backlash imaginable
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Old 8th May 2019, 10:25
  #7808 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Those in Westminster have already had that wake up call. In fact they have had several and ignored them all.
Each little faction is determined to get their own way, regardless of the needs of the country.

I've had a look at the list of candidates in my local constituency. Two erstwhile major parties, neither of which has a clearly stated policy of being either in or out of the EU. In an EU election FFS! And so many others to choose from that I suspect most voters will put their cross at random, or more likely stay at home. I certainly won't be wasting my time doing something that can have no effect whatever.
​​​​
para 1 - Which shows that second referendum is an unnecessary and irrelevant expense.

para 2 - Which shows that a United party will garner most seats.

Apart from showing the probable outcome of a referendum it is also an expensive irrelevance unless​​​​​​ Article 50 is revoked.
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Old 8th May 2019, 10:29
  #7809 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
"splitting" the votes might quite possibly mean the minor parties will get zero seats...l
It is simpler than the system. In our region votes will be split 9 ways for only 5 seats. NE have only 3 seats, Wales 4. The SE have 10.

It is madness that the minority parties don't group to match number of seats.
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Old 8th May 2019, 10:33
  #7810 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Sky News political correspondent......

https://news.sky.com/story/trumpism-...harge-11714025

Brexit: The conditions are ripe for the biggest backlash imaginable
The results will certainly be interesting, as it is possibly the first time that people have been able to have a mass vote without needing to be particularly concerned about the consequences. The Brexit party will certainly pick up a lot of votes, possibly the most, but itís the spread of the remain voters that will be interesting. Will the Lib Dems get the majority of their vote, or will Change UK get a significant chunk? Will Tory and Labour voters go for more obvious remain/leave parties en masse, or will the tribal pull be too strong in the end?

One thing is is for sure- Brexiteers will lump the Tory/Labour vote into their score, but certainly in Labourís case, and the Tories to an extent - it ainít that simple!
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Old 8th May 2019, 12:26
  #7811 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
One thing is is for sure- Brexiteers will lump the Tory/Labour vote into their score, but certainly in Labourís case, and the Tories to an extent - it ainít that simple!
Well TM, in her election mailing is right, only the conservatives can deliver Brexit, but only because they are the Governing party.

She will claim Brexit votes too.
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Old 8th May 2019, 18:44
  #7812 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
going to have to hold their noses and vote Lib Dem
Which is what my mother, a lifelong Labour supported, did in the locals. I was in her house when she was filling in her postal ballot (obvs I rushed out of the room as soon as I realised what she was doing).
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Old 8th May 2019, 18:45
  #7813 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
The results will certainly be interesting, as it is possibly the first time that people have been able to have a mass vote without needing to be particularly concerned about the consequences. The Brexit party will certainly pick up a lot of votes, possibly the most, but itís the spread of the remain voters that will be interesting. Will the Lib Dems get the majority of their vote, or will Change UK get a significant chunk? Will Tory and Labour voters go for more obvious remain/leave parties en masse, or will the tribal pull be too strong in the end?

One thing is is for sure- Brexiteers will lump the Tory/Labour vote into their score, but certainly in Labourís case, and the Tories to an extent - it ainít that simple!
Yes. Exactly that. All of it.
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Old 8th May 2019, 19:23
  #7814 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Those in Westminster have already had that wake up call. In fact they have had several and ignored them all.
Each little faction is determined to get their own way, regardless of the needs of the country.

I've had a look at the list of candidates in my local constituency. Two erstwhile major parties, neither of which has a clearly stated policy of being either in or out of the EU. In an EU election FFS! And so many others to choose from that I suspect most voters will put their cross at random, or more likely stay at home. I certainly won't be wasting my time doing something that can have no effect whatever.
​​​​
Of course it will have an effect Silly, there will be quite a large difference between the result of the brexit party getting a load of MEPs and any other party, it's a choice between having representatives that will fight to deliver brexit and quite likely annoy the **** out of the EU in the process compared to the outcome if one of the other more nice little bunches of liars get installed in Eutopia who will then simply bend over and spread em

Go vote Sally, if you can be bothered this time..it WILL make a difference
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Old 8th May 2019, 21:25
  #7815 (permalink)  
 
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I keep seeing headlines in the news referring to why the UK 'had' to take part in the EU elections. I must admit I haven't read any of the stories accompanying the headlines but it did occur to me, the UK didn't 'have' to do any such thing. In theory, the government could have just stamped a foot and said "Shan't". What would the EU do about that? Send in the troops? I very much doubt that. Perhaps they would say "Oh sod them then! They are leaving anyway, let's just shorten that for them and kick them out".
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Old 8th May 2019, 22:04
  #7816 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting feature on Newsnight about the situation in the North. Their analysis of why many have voted Brexit seems to chime with what I have seen. It seems to be people who feel that they have missed out, been done down by the system.

The question really is this: if we were to have a No Deal Brexit as supported by Boris and JRM, would the lot of these people improve? It seems to me counter intuitive to imagine that this might occur. Those Old Etonian supporters of Brexit are hardly likely to legislate to help those at the bottom of the pile. Much more likely that they would legislate by labour laws to exploit still further this cohort, more zero hours contracts, fewer protections for workers.

The whole crux of the problem as I see it is that the entire economic system is tilted against those without education and any other capability apart from the sale of their labour. This combined with the hoovering up of property for profit by a different section of the population has ensured that those at the bottom can never hope to climb the ladder. What we are now seeing with the rise of populism that is driving Brexit is the first, mild reaction of the hard done by.

It seems to me that Beexit will exacerbate this. Once it happens those who see themselves as downtrodden will realise that things have not improved and maybe got worse. What happens then?
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Old 8th May 2019, 22:10
  #7817 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Those Old Etonian supporters of Brexit are hardly likely to legislate to help those at the bottom of the pile. Much more likely that they would ...
... use their EU passports to emigrate.
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Old 8th May 2019, 22:33
  #7818 (permalink)  
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These days, with so many State School boys at Etone, OE supporters of Brexit are just as likely to be wonky waiters at third rate London restaurants who would prefer not to have competition from Continentals who speak English with accents more mellifluous than they themselves.

Tally Ho!
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:13
  #7819 (permalink)  
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Who would have thought Treeza was a football fan !...clearly following the strategy of several, ahem, " well known managers " with her neat tactic of going into extra time to get a result then.....alas, the immoral words " they think it's all over...it is now " !..will soon be repeated........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-and-exit-date

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...resign-cartoon

Anyway, who needs those tiresome procurement processes when the nations needs are threatened......and the tax payer will be footing the bill !......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48208121

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 9th May 2019 at 05:41.
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:53
  #7820 (permalink)  
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https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...in-days-labour

MPs to be given fresh vote on Brexit deal 'within days' as Labour-government deadlock goes on

Sir Graham Brady, chairman of the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers, said he believed the Withdrawal Agreement Bill will be introduced at second reading before the European elections on 23 May. Significantly, Conservative MPs have been put on a three-line whip for next Thursday, leading to speculation that could be the day of the vote.

He said: "I think it is the intention to have a further vote, probably on second reading, of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill before the European elections take place and hopefully in the much nearer future than that."

The Altrincham and Sale West MP said the Prime Minister should consider removing the Irish backstop from bill in order to guarantee the support of her Tory colleagues.

"I made my view clear that I think the sensible thing to do is to introduce the bill at second reading, bringing forward elements of the political declaration that would obviate the need for the backstop by offering alternative arrangements," he said. “The only positive proposition which has commanded a majority was my amendment which sought to pass the withdrawal agreement without the backstop in its current form. I think bringing forward a second reading of a bill which sought to deal with the backstop is the best prospect of securing second reading."




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