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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 26th Mar 2019, 09:49
  #6841 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
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Pontius Navigator and Hussar 54 have commented on attitudes from France. I have a very recent receipt issued in France which states:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MONTANT = 35,00 EUR

Pour information:
229,58 FRF
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They haven't given up on that pre-EU stuff, have they?
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 09:49
  #6842 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
As usual, and I must have said this time and time again, polls and the answers they provide are dependent on the questions and how they are asked, and that is guided by the person or organisations that are paying for the research.
That is the issue with a second referendum, as there is a suspicion that it will be worded such that remain will be the only outcome, but of course they would not do that
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 09:57
  #6843 (permalink)  
 
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An early election would need to be "passed by 66% of MPs". Can anyone think of 66% of MPs who would not be absolutely terrified at that idea of having to face their electorates with they way the public are currently viewing Parliament? A General Election (a genuine "peoples' vote") would be the best way of clearing out that rotten House, but I cannot see it happening. What they are going to do instead is make sure that they become even more discredited in the eyes of everyone viewing them from outside their 'village'.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:01
  #6844 (permalink)  
 
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As I suggested over on another thread, just run the binary yes or no referendum again but this time allocate the 'didn't vote' numbers to a default 'yes' or 'no'. That way every vote counts, not just about half of those that can be bothered to vote.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:09
  #6845 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
For those that think last night moved us any further forward.

Indicative votes are not binding and TM has stated she will disregard anything which contradicts the Conservative manifesto at the last election - which ruled out a Customs Union.

I'm afraid that won't quite cut the cake. TM can say that all she likes to justify her position but you may recall the last Conservative manifesto contained a dementia tax without a cap. A previous Conservative administration stood on a manifesto with something called the community charge. Whatever happened to that government? Either way, the argument contravening a manifesto pledge is unacceptable is as hollow as a cave.

Parliament has taken control of business from a broken government & all that remains for the administration to wrest back control is self immolation OR put the frighteners on the ERG & DUP to the extent they back the PM.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:10
  #6846 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
For those that think last night moved us any further forward.

Indicative votes are not binding and TM has stated she will disregard anything which contradicts the Conservative manifesto at the last election - which ruled out a Customs Union.

Parliament can can attempt to push through Brexit legislation, but the government can stop any such attempt by withholding Royal Consent. They can also veto any attempt to repeal the current WA the same way.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2019...xtension-bill/

The EU will not agree to a further extension past 12 April unless there is a definite plan, such as for an election or referendum. The government will not agree to a referendum. An election under the FTP Act, unless passed by 66% of MPs, would not be confirmed till after the the passing of a vote of NC followed by an pause of 14 days.

In short, TM can still stall until 48 hours before Brexit and present the HoC with the option of her deal or no-deal.
May can, and has said many things. "We're leaving the EU on 29th March 2019" was one; "Brexit means Brexit" is another and she's said one thing one day, and done something else the next on more occasions than a few. I'm sure you're right, she could do any or all of the things you have mentioned to block MPs from getting their preferred (or least disliked) Brexit but in reality, were she to block, say a Brexit with customs union, and then the UK subsequently fall out of the EU on 12th April with no deal who would the public blame? The MPs who tried to get us out of this mess, or the PM and Tories who blocked it for internal party reasons?

I believe if the government lead us out for the EU with no deal, the Tories will still implode. There a number of sane MPs within the Tories who appreciate that the economy, public finances and the population's wellbeing are more important than attaining a pure Brexit and will leave the party if we crash out. Either way, however Brexit is resolved, the current two party system appears doomed, as Labour will likely suffer similar issues especially with Corbyn at the helm.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:18
  #6847 (permalink)  
 
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In current UK Law, what is the date that we leave the EU?

No whatifery please, just the facts as they stand right now.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:39
  #6848 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
In current UK Law, what is the date that we leave the EU?

No whatifery please, just the facts as they stand right now.
Today, it's 29th March; by the end of the week it's expected to be 12th April. On the 11th of April?? I suggest you consult Mr Blobby!
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:40
  #6849 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
As I suggested over on another thread, just run the binary yes or no referendum again but this time allocate the 'didn't vote' numbers to a default 'yes' or 'no'. That way every vote counts, not just about half of those that can be bothered to vote.
And who is going to decide what side the votes should go to, perhaps we would need another vote to decide that. Perhaps also a vote to decide who will decide.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:47
  #6850 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by goofer3 View Post
And who is going to decide what side the votes should go to, perhaps we would need another vote to decide that. Perhaps also a vote to decide who will decide.
If you had fairly divided those 'did not vote' numbers between leave and remain i.e. 50% to each, surely leave would still have won with the exact same percentage difference as they actually did.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:07
  #6851 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I believe if the government lead us out for the EU with no deal, the Tories will still implode. There a number of sane MPs within the Tories....
So only sane MPs and people don't want BREXIT?

Another poster who can't resist more insults of people who think differently.

And you wonder why this thread is mainly populated by a few posters?

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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:22
  #6852 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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In current UK Law, what is the date that we leave the EU?
It’s 12th April. EU law has supremacy over UK law.

https://publiclawforeveryone.com/201...legal-reality/

If the change to the date in the WA is not made by Friday it just means the UK is in breach of it’ international obligations and massive problems in the courts as the enabling UK legislation for EU regulations will no longer hold legal force.

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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:55
  #6853 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


So only sane MPs and people don't want BREXIT?

Another poster who can't resist more insults of people who think differently.

And you wonder why this thread is mainly populated by a few posters?

Is it sane to take a course that will increase unemployment, potentially damage health care, and perhaps least critical make travel for the general population (be it on the M20 or crossing borders) more difficult and expensive? Perhaps you believe it is. If so it is perfectly sane to leap off the Brexit cliff edge.

It might I suppose have been better to substitute the word pragmatic for sane in my original posting.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:00
  #6854 (permalink)  
 
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Yet more fear factor.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:02
  #6855 (permalink)  
 
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This seems to be doing the rounds - apologies if it has been posted previously.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:03
  #6856 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
Yet more fear factor.
Remember the 800,000 job losses that a 'Leave' vote would cause? And the need for an 'Emergency Budget'

Yawn!
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:06
  #6857 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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Originally Posted by goofer3 View Post
And who is going to decide what side the votes should go to, perhaps we would need another vote to decide that. Perhaps also a vote to decide who will decide.
State at the outset that all non voters will count as status quo or set the leave bar at 60%.

If you didn't vote but support leave you might just GOYA and vote.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:14
  #6858 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Is it sane to take a course that will increase unemployment, potentially damage health care, and perhaps least critical make travel for the general population (be it on the M20 or crossing borders) more difficult and expensive? Perhaps you believe it is. If so it is perfectly sane to leap off the Brexit cliff edge.

It might I suppose have been better to substitute the word pragmatic for sane in my original posting.
You have no proof at all that any of that will happen. Iím beginning to think itís wishful thinking from some people. To quote a well known sith lord ď I find your lack of faith ( in the British people ) disturbingĒ. What on earth has happened to us that we feel so inadequate as not to believe we can prosper without the EU overseeing everything we do? What have we become?
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:19
  #6859 (permalink)  
 
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Jindabyne

Don't know if that's accurate or fake news, but I've no reason to doubt it.

The question is, would that still be the case today having had nigh on 3 years of indecision, mismanagement and now a much clearer picture of what Brexit really means.

I have met small numbers of people who have said that they would change their vote from leave to remain, but none that have said they have switched the other way. By no means a scientific study, just what I've gleaned through talking casually to people randomly. Generally it is they, rather than I who ever mention Brexit. I tend to try and steer clear of it when working!

If there were a new referendum I wouldn't put any money on the result changing, though I would very much like it to be different, and I really don't know what Brexiteers are so frightened about. Getting public approval for the exit deal, whatever it finally turns out to be, would bring the country together better than politicians talking across each other and spouting all the mantras we come to know and love / loathe (delete which not applicable). Running a new simplistic remain / leave vote would be a total waste of time, non productive and divisive.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:23
  #6860 (permalink)  
 
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The referendum was held three years ago- there is no reason not to have one now at all-in fact if anyone has reas the small print it made it clear that there was along process under article 50 so they have nothign to comlain about. And of course democracy doesnt include barefaced liwes and taking money froma potentially hostile foreign power to fund the campaign.

BUT more to the point , I read today that Michael Gove is fave for next PM , well clearly a thousand times better than BJ and a million times better than R-M, and indded he is my MP. However he also introduced the academy process for schools and incentivised them to 'pursue that status. Now I have no doubt that he was genuine in his feelings of getting better and more basic standards of English and maths and education in general.

However what happened in practice, many academies became run by trusts whose aim was to make money legally or illegally as demonstrated by recent events ast a local school, in his constituency-of very strong rumours of misconduct at another in same area and graphically by panorama last night. So MG isnt exactly a superstar as a minister and is frankly a bit naive with all the various problems and loss of public money privatisation has generally wrought.

Of course fervently believing in something without fully understanding the implications could be applied to the major issue in UK politics right now . And one has to question the sanity of anyone who wants to be the next PM , I think reverse Russian roulette is more the metaphor than poisoned chalice -although both are French words and may soon be banned in favour of good old English vocabulary, damn that foreign origins too
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