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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 24th Mar 2019, 11:19
  #6761 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
If we were to revoke our Article 50 notice of withdrawal, then I suspect that would have near-zero reputational impact within Westminster, as the reputational damage to all those who've been responsible for the almighty balls-up that we've seen within parliament has already been done, and may not be forgotten quickly. Easy as it is to just blame May for being incompetent (which, in my view, she has been), the reality is that the whole of parliament has behaved absolutely appallingly, so it seems wrong to just pick out the PM for blame. Parliament as a whole sought to derail the whole process in order to engage in party political in-fighting, not something that was in the slightest bit in the best interest of the country as a whole.

Those who voted remain can presumably throw all their support behind the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Sinn Fťin, Ulster Unionists, SDLP, Plaid Cymru and the Green Party, not that doing this will change who governs the UK, I suspect. The bigger question is who will the leave supporters vote for at the next General Election?
I think May was right to say the population is exhausted by it all and was also right to castigate Parliament. In my view I think she was wrong to roll back on her criticism of MPs. The root cause, as we know, is that we have a Parliament with a majority of MP’s who simply do not want to exit the EU.

If article 50 was to be cancelled I think the UK taken as a whole would simply shrug its shoulders, wonder what that was all about, and quietly and simply get back on with life. That I think is the national character. I would do the same, but I would never vote in any election ever again - not ever.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 12:21
  #6762 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


I think May was right to say the population is exhausted by it all and was also right to castigate Parliament. In my view I think she was wrong to roll back on her criticism of MPs. The root cause, as we know, is that we have a Parliament with a majority of MPís who simply do not want to exit the EU.

If article 50 was to be cancelled I think the UK taken as a whole would simply shrug its shoulders, wonder what that was all about, and quietly and simply get back on with life. That I think is the national character. I would do the same, but I would never vote in any election ever again - not ever.
So in a nutshell you want to take back control from the EU, but if Parliament doesnít do what you want youíre going to stamp your feet and refuse to come out to play again. I had a mate like that - we were about 5 at the time!
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 13:47
  #6763 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post


So in a nutshell you want to take back control from the EU, but if Parliament doesn’t do what you want you’re going to stamp your feet and refuse to come out to play again. I had a mate like that - we were about 5 at the time!

Not necessarily stupid.

There was an interview with a British ( almost certainly UKIP ) MEP but I didn't get the name ) on radio here on Tuesday night.

When he was asked about whether there should be a second referendum, he had two very interesting answers.

1 Has any other EU member state even allowed a first ?

2 If there is, we will advise those who in the first referendum voted to Leave to abstain from voting in protest. It will be a genuine embarrassment for the UK Parliament and for the EU if there is a North Korean style result of Remain 16,000,000 votes and Leave 342 votes.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 14:40
  #6764 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


I think May was right to say the population is exhausted by it all and was also right to castigate Parliament. In my view I think she was wrong to roll back on her criticism of MPs. The root cause, as we know, is that we have a Parliament with a majority of MP’s who simply do not want to exit the EU.

Wholly wrong in my view. If a prime minister needs the support of the house, you think the best way to achieve that is to attack the very people whose support she requires? That's a novel approach and what does it say about democracy when a leader sets her face against the very organ of democracy itself.

As for the parliament being a remain majority, I find that tin eared at the very least. It's an unfortunate side effect of this ghastly mess that people have become partisan to the extent they are willing to deny the obvious. Brexit is damaging. No Brexit enhances the country in any way. MP's are not delegates. If they are voting against Brexit, then there is a clear motive for them to do so. Whether it's the Hobson's choice on offer or a spasm of conscience placing country before party, it doesn't matter. Dismissing 650 very different people from all walks of life as some homogeneous mass is massively simplistic & a diminution of reason.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 14:44
  #6765 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Easy as it is to just blame May for being incompetent (which, in my view, she has beenk), the reality is that the whole of parliament has behaved absolutely appallingly, so it seems wrong to just pick out the PM for blame.
Representative democracy in progress. She leads; she pays.
It also affects cabinet who share collective responsibility. She goes; they go.
Some may come back under a new leader but technically, until there is a new leader, they become toast too.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 14:51
  #6766 (permalink)  
 
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Fascinating how a number of MPs who have steadfastly rejected Theresa May's deal are now claiming to be behind her. Of course it is difficult to stab someone in the back from any other position.

First order of business in the House tomorrow should be to give all MPs a break for a week. Brexit will just happen and MPs, fresh after their break, can then get down to serious negotiations.

Alternatively perhaps the Queen might step in and suspend parliament for a week to give her subjects a rest and time for MPs to reflect on their abominable behaviour.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 16:15
  #6767 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone remember this incredible love and respect for the European Union prior to the referendum?

I can’t.

Why does no media outlet question those that march and press buttons on their computers demanding revoking article 50 why?

I spoke with a very intelligent person who is a remainer recently I said do you know that some people don’t know that the EU Parliament physically moves from Brussels to Strasbourg and back every month? The look on her face was incredible “does it?” She said.

She did not know that simple fact! This person is a lawyer.

I have a friend who is an MEP and I have some insight into how wasteful and corrupt the whole set up is.

I guarantee that if there were actually 1 million on that March 99% of them know very little about the workings of the EU and I include the smirking, selfie taking, useless politicians in that.

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Old 24th Mar 2019, 16:35
  #6768 (permalink)  
 
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You guarantee that do you? An actual guarantee. 5 million signatures, easily over a million marching. Any semblance of moral authority is draining away. Scared to hold a second referendum, a PM all but done for, Brexit ministers at each others throats on how to move forward, A leave march that would fit into a couple of coaches. It's collapsing around your ears. So, if the government rams it through somehow, what do you think you've won exactly?


See for yourself.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47680979/brexit-people-s-vote-march-to-parliament-square-sped-up
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 16:49
  #6769 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Wholly wrong in my view. If a prime minister needs the support of the house, you think the best way to achieve that is to attack the very people whose support she requires? That's a novel approach and what does it say about democracy when a leader sets her face against the very organ of democracy itself.

As for the parliament being a remain majority, I find that tin eared at the very least. It's an unfortunate side effect of this ghastly mess that people have become partisan to the extent they are willing to deny the obvious. Brexit is damaging. No Brexit enhances the country in any way. MP's are not delegates. If they are voting against Brexit, then there is a clear motive for them to do so. Whether it's the Hobson's choice on offer or a spasm of conscience placing country before party, it doesn't matter. Dismissing 650 very different people from all walks of life as some homogeneous mass is massively simplistic & a diminution of reason.
Hypothetcally speaking, if the June 2016 vote had been, say, 60/40 in favour of leaving and Parliament was made up of the same MP’s as we currently have, where do you think Brexit would be now with regard to it’s passage through the HoC? (Hypothetical as I say).



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Old 24th Mar 2019, 16:51
  #6770 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post


So in a nutshell you want to take back control from the EU, but if Parliament doesnít do what you want youíre going to stamp your feet and refuse to come out to play again. I had a mate like that - we were about 5 at the time!
I presume you never grew out of wearing short trousers judging by your response.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 16:53
  #6771 (permalink)  
 
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It rings false to me when May bleats that Brexit was the "people's choice" when we well know that Cambridge Analytica had a thumb on the scales. A shift of two percent of the voters would have produced a draw - in reality a total lack of consensus just as it is today.

In the corporate (including non profit) sector, changes to bylaws generally require a 60 to 67% majority.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 17:01
  #6772 (permalink)  
 
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Yes but the revoke petition is FULL of bots apparently. The hypocrisy is next level. Anyway, YT, it's not really the result of the ref that's been the problem, is it? The root of this is May's catastrophic decision to hold a GE in 2017 & prior to that, setting out red lines that were both unrealistic, failed to realise the country is not in fact an island & hobbled negotiations with Europe.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 17:07
  #6773 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Yes but the revoke petition is FULL of bots apparently. The hypocrisy is next level. Anyway, YT, it's not really the result of the ref that's been the problem, is it? The root of this is May's catastrophic decision to hold a GE in 2017 & prior to that, setting out red lines that were both unrealistic, failed to realise the country is not in fact an island & hobbled negotiations with Europe.
Iíd still be interested in your thoughts on my hypothetical question - it is not designed to be any sort of trap, just interested.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 17:12
  #6774 (permalink)  
 
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Assuming no other variables, in the same smelly place.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 17:20
  #6775 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Yes but the revoke petition is FULL of bots apparently. The hypocrisy is next level.
You're suggesting each and everyone of those signatures is genuine? How naive, or gullible, or downright stupid are you?

If CA had a hand in 'cheating' remainers of their dreams of being a part of federal Europe how is it impossible for outside actors to be affecting this petition, which by the way has outstripped every other UK petition by a higr amount.

Get real, you are being played.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 17:30
  #6776 (permalink)  
 
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How is it possible? I don't know, I'm not making the claim, you are. Pretty hard to miss the million plus people walking round London yesterday though, since we're addressing disbelief at big numbers.


I'll sit back & sip this delicious cup of tea whilst you provide the evidence, helping me to get real & be less gullible, naive and/or stupid.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 17:31
  #6777 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
It rings false to me when May bleats that Brexit was the "people's choice" when we well know that Cambridge Analytica had a thumb on the scales. A shift of two percent of the voters would have produced a draw - in reality a total lack of consensus just as it is today.

In the corporate (including non profit) sector, changes to bylaws generally require a 60 to 67% majority.

All fine and dandy, but virtually impossible in multi-party states / countries with a reasonable amount of democracy. In a three party election, it would need one party to have twice as many votes as the other two combined.

I am fairly certain that no Governments in Western Europe have ever been elected with a 60 > 67% majority, of the one-man-one-vote, and if we had such a 'requirement ' we would probably have had 30something Government-less countries for the past few generations.

I may be wrong so open to being corrected.

Last edited by Hussar 54; 24th Mar 2019 at 17:44. Reason: Missed out the point in italics....
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 18:35
  #6778 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
How is it possible? I don't know, I'm not making the claim, you are. Pretty hard to miss the million plus people walking round London yesterday though, since we're addressing disbelief at big numbers.


I'll sit back & sip this delicious cup of tea whilst you provide the evidence, helping me to get real & be less gullible, naive and/or stupid.
I don't know how it's done, I'm one of the great uneducated class in this country, but I do know a weak argument; you have accused the leave side of hypocrisy and then asked for them to prove they're not hypocrites.

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Old 24th Mar 2019, 18:55
  #6779 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post

Hypothetcally speaking, if the June 2016 vote had been, say, 60/40 in favour of leaving and Parliament was made up of the same MPís as we currently have, where do you think Brexit would be now with regard to itís passage through the HoC? (Hypothetical as I say).
I would guess that we'd be in EXACTLY the same situation.

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Old 24th Mar 2019, 19:05
  #6780 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I would guess that we'd be in EXACTLY the same situation.
I am of the opinion only that we would be in a different position to be honest, but probably like others I cannot prove why, or provide any tangible evidence either.
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