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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 22nd Mar 2019, 10:32
  #6641 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.economist.com/finance-an...ssing-a-merger

And this link covers the issues but I dislike giving it because its a sponsored article.

https://advisorhub.com/resources/a-e...anking-crisis/

But the information it covers is freely available on the Eu stats website.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...next-recession

https://www.businessinsider.com/euro...cession-2019-1

Do your own research and make your own mind up about what's likely to happen. Personally I belive the majority of the damage has been done with Brexit getting to this point so its only the depth of the poo that will be slightly changed ie is it up to the neck or to the mouth or covers the nose and is fatal.

If they hate the idea so much perhaps it’s not so bad?
They know full well that if the UK escapes the CU then they are utterly utterly screwed. Personally I can see all the trade agreements made during the existence of the Eu being up for renegotiation. And without the UK's huge import market they will be nowhere near as favourable as they are just now.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 10:44
  #6642 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
Iím a Brexiteer as you put it, Iím not scared of a second referendum. I believe it should be to a higher Ďstandardí of proof to the first referendum otherwise we will end up gooing round in circles. 60% either way would be good enough for me. You cannot simply ignore the first referendum - it is the default position, so, 60% to cancel for me.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 10:47
  #6643 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


Iím a Brexiteer as you put it, Iím not scared of a second referendum. I believe it should be to a higher Ďstandardí of proof to the first referendum otherwise we will end up gooing round in circles. 60% either way would be good enough for me. You cannot simply ignore the first referendum - it is the default position, so, 60% to cancel for me.
This begs a question. If as a leaver, you won the referendum, why would you entertain a second?
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 11:37
  #6644 (permalink)  
 
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More than likely to shut the moaning loosing windgers up from the first one.


Personally I think its a flawed out look. It doesn't matter what happens in the second one either, they will still carry on windging and moaning about how it its so unfair that they lost. And the leavers cheated again...… etc etc

If gawd forbid they won this time it.... a few years later when something changes eg the UK has to go to the Euro... It starts all over again after the intervening years are full of leave windgers.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 11:40
  #6645 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
This begs a question. If as a leaver, you won the referendum, why would you entertain a second?
Excellent question.
The response will be interesting if you get one.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 11:54
  #6646 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
This begs a question. If as a leaver, you won the referendum, why would you entertain a second?
Because more Ďhardí facts surrounding leaving the EU under any or all circumstances are in the public domain. Because a vote of 60% either way would leave no doubt in either remainer or leave or EU leadership minds as to what the UK actually wants now.

So to be clear, under my proposal we are definitely leaving as per the 2016 referendum unless there is a 60% vote in favour of remaining.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 11:55
  #6647 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


Because more Ďhardí facts surrounding leaving the EU under any or all circumstances are in the public domain. Because a vote of 60% either way would leave no doubt in either remainer or leave or EU leadership minds as to what the UK actually wants now.

So to be clear, under my proposal we are definitely leaving as per the 2016 referendum unless there is a 60% vote in favour of remaining.
That's an excellent & candid response in direct contrast to the preceding one.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 12:20
  #6648 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


Because more ‘hard’ facts surrounding leaving the EU under any or all circumstances are in the public domain. Because a vote of 60% either way would leave no doubt in either remainer or leave or EU leadership minds as to what the UK actually wants now.

So to be clear, under my proposal we are definitely leaving as per the 2016 referendum unless there is a 60% vote in favour of remaining.


Laudable - but a can of worms with way too many qualifications I think.

We've already argued above about who should vote - binary or multiple choice ; advisory or binding on the government of the day ; date to be held ; one off or as part of an agreement that every EU change , particularly Treaties like Nice, Maastricht and Lisbon, in future to be approved by voters or still just by Parliament ; and probably others....

And, of course, what happens if the majority is 59% Keep voting until there is eventually a 60% majority - because ( as my Father and Grandmother used to say, ) as sure as eggs are eggs that will be the next shouting match.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 12:24
  #6649 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


I’m a Brexiteer as you put it, I’m not scared of a second referendum. I believe it should be to a higher ‘standard’ of proof to the first referendum otherwise we will end up gooing round in circles. 60% either way would be good enough for me. You cannot simply ignore the first referendum - it is the default position, so, 60% to cancel for me.
How many more referendums does there have to be to get a "satisfactory" result?

The Irish, French, Danish, and Dutch fiasco's come to mind, over years past when they were "asked to think again" about their decision(s) to "rail" against EU and their "on-going" tinkering.

In the UK, 17.4 M voted leave against 16.1 M who voted to remain and 406 constituencies voted to leave with 142 voting to remain, 9 regions voted to leave and 3 regions voted remain but when you get to the House of Commons, 160 MP's are in favour of leaving and 486 are in favour of remaining.
Brexit isn’t the problem; it’s our MP’s who are the problem.

Last edited by frampton; 22nd Mar 2019 at 12:32. Reason: grammar.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 12:36
  #6650 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting to see that around 60% of the signatures on the petition to revoke the Article 50 notice cannot be attributed to anyone specifically, and that there are "signatures" coming from around the globe. Just seen this bit of analysis:

Current state of the petition:




Analysis of signatures:




Anyone want to say that this isn't being hacked now?

I'm a bit surprised that the government's own petition site seems to be so vulnerable (perhaps I shouldn't be, given the inability of government to manage any IT related project)
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 12:46
  #6651 (permalink)  
 
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Of course its being abused. But it gives the newspaper something to write about.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 12:53
  #6652 (permalink)  
 
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So you're accepting at face value that a democratic exercise is being interfered with by unknown entities? That is interesting.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:00
  #6653 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959
Anyone want to say that this isn't being hacked now?
What utter nonsense. British citizens, no matter where in the world they are, or UK residents can sign the petition.

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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:11
  #6654 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
Laudable - but a can of worms with way too many qualifications I think.

We've already argued above about who should vote - binary or multiple choice ; advisory or binding on the government of the day ; date to be held ; one off or as part of an agreement that every EU change , particularly Treaties like Nice, Maastricht and Lisbon, in future to be approved by voters or still just by Parliament ; and probably others....

And, of course, what happens if the majority is 59% Keep voting until there is eventually a 60% majority - because ( as my Father and Grandmother used to say, ) as sure as eggs are eggs that will be the next shouting match.
Under my proposal if the majority to remain is 60% - 1 then remain loses and we exit the EU. Thatís it - no more referendums. None. If there were to be a second referendum then whilst the hard facts of leaving are now known and understood, the hard facts of remaining not so much. Remain would have to come under the same scrutiny with regards to the long term aims of the EU. Likely - will there be an EU Army, will there be enforced monetary union, Will it become more accountable to the EU wide electorate, will the HoP eventually become redundant to be replaced by an EU equivalent, will our Monarchy continue? These are deep seated and legitimate questions to ask among many many others about the long term future of the EU.

If the majority of the electorate want to cede everything to the EU in the long term so they would need to lobby very hard in any second referendum. But if the result of all that is 60+1 to leave then I would accept it.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:12
  #6655 (permalink)  
 
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Here's how this stuff works. Weird, very IT literate kids on 4Chan (look it up) are talking about DDOS attacks on the epetitions site. They hit it heavily with fake emails from the Sahara, Narnia & the negative zone, lift the metadata, pass it on to selected friendly journos, yes, you, Guido, where it's amplified in a disinformation narrative & ends up in places like this. Meanwhile, Noooooo one on leave believes for a second the Russians, Cambridge Analytica or Arron Banks had anything to do with anything & round & round it goes.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:14
  #6656 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by One Outsider View Post
What utter nonsense. British citizens, no matter where in the world they are, or UK residents can sign the petition.
So, are you saying that the missing 1,710,027 signature locations are all British ex-pats then?

Seems pretty far fetched, even for JB.

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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:22
  #6657 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


Under my proposal if the majority to remain is 60% - 1 then remain loses and we exit the EU. That’s it - no more referendums. None. If there were to be a second referendum then whilst the hard facts of leaving are now known and understood, the hard facts of remaining not so much. Remain would have to come under the same scrutiny with regards to the long term aims of the EU. Likely - will there be an EU Army, will there be enforced monetary union, Will it become more accountable to the EU wide electorate, will the HoP eventually become redundant to be replaced by an EU equivalent, will our Monarchy continue? These are deep seated and legitimate questions to ask among many many others about the long term future of the EU.

If the majority of the electorate want to cede everything to the EU in the long term so they would need to lobby very hard in any second referendum. But if the result of all that is 60+1 to leave then I would accept it.
I like your style....

Trouble is, though, nobody knows where the EU will actually end up - those wanting NOT to leave have already denied EU army, no expansion into the Balkans, no loss of soveeignity, etc, and would continue to deny it and millions would swallow those lies, whereas those of us who can think past the end of our nose know where the EU is going to end up unless it is stopped.

A retrurn to a simple Free Trade Area without the political bolleaux would be acceptable to 95% of all 400+ million people currently living in the EU - but unacceptable to the 5% who are the direct benficiaries of the EU's largesse and ideology which includes, unfortunately, the political establishment and decision makers.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:25
  #6658 (permalink)  
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So it Brexit delayed?
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:29
  #6659 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
I like your style....

Trouble is, though, nobody knows where the EU will actually end up - those wanting NOT to leave have already denied EU army, no expansion into the Balkans, no loss of soveeignity, etc, and would continue to deny it and millions would swallow those lies, whereas those of us who can think past the end of our nose know where the EU is going to end up unless it is stopped.

A retrurn to a simple Free Trade Area without the political bolleaux would be acceptable to 95% of all 400+ million people currently living in the EU - but unacceptable to the 5% who are the direct benficiaries of the EU's largesse and ideology which includes, unfortunately, the political establishment and decision makers.
I need to correct the last sentence of my post. I meant to say if the the result of any second referendum was 60+1 to remain, I would accept that. Other than that I understand the sentiments you express.

Off to the cinema now.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 13:57
  #6660 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
So, are you saying that the missing 1,710,027 signature locations are all British ex-pats then?

Seems pretty far fetched, even for JB.
Well I, family, friends and contacts locally can probably account for a good 10-20 legimate "off shore" voters.

The fact that some people were rushing to yell "foul" at the sight of non-UK addresses shows a certain lack of willingness on their part to spend time doing any fact checking on who is could vote.. but hey, lets blow that dog whistle

And TBH it's not even an advisory" petition, it's sadly not likely to get to 17.4 million...so ultimately I'm really not sure people would be best advised to to start worked up about the possibility of foreign interference in the process...
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