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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:20
  #6581 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
You are wrong. The CJEU has ruled otherwise.
Legally, perhaps. But not practical in the available time.

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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:21
  #6582 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
They won't give you their real answer, which is that they are sh1t scared they'll lose their prize. Instead you'll get the usual mantras about 17.4m people voted for it, 52% etc etc. Personally, I don't believe you can ever have too much democracy. Leavers appear to believe that democracy (so far as Brexit is concerned) ended on 23.6.16 when the polls closed.

For what it's worth, I would have liked another referendum, based on the deal that TM got, or remain, however I am not in the least convinced that my side would have won. I write in the past tense, as I believe that democratic vote is now not available to us.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:22
  #6583 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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If the WA is voted down, the UK leaves the EU on Friday 29th at 11pm.

to those who think that the UK can revoke A50 before Friday to enable further negotiations, May I refer them to the conditions laid down by the ECJ when they give their ruling on the Scottish request for clarification of whether A50 could be revoked. They catered for specially such an eventuality.

How could the UK revoke Article 50?


The revocation of Article 50 itself must be “submitted in writing to the European Council”, and it must be “unequivocal and unconditional”. That the revocation must be unequivocal implies that the UK could not revoke to get a breathing space in order to prepare better to resend the Article 50 notification in due course.......





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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:30
  #6584 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
I'm not convinced that's the case. The question of how to word any such referendum would be challenging to answer though, as would finding the time needed to organise a referendum before the new deadline that's been requested.

It seems clear that, over the past couple of years, those who supported remaining within the EU have fought an extremely effective campaign to get the referendum result overturned, using any and every trick possible. The same perseverance doesn't seem to have spurred the leave supporters to do anything much, perhaps because the leave campaign "organisers" were a disorganised and largely dysfunctional collection of groups that didn't actually agree with each other on anything, other than leaving the EU. I wonder what a microscope turned on to the remain campaign might find?

No one on the leave side seems to have been sufficiently well-organised to mount a campaign as effectively as the remainers have against various leave campaigners, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all was roses within the remain campaign. Reading some of the comments here from hard-line remainers indicates that some might go to practically any lengths in order to get the decision overturned, including giving misleading information, making personal attacks on individuals who hold a view that doesn't align with their own and regularly being vulgar and abusive.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:32
  #6585 (permalink)  
 
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Per say it's not scared of another ref because I also think it will be the same as the last one.

It's just such a waste of time and effort and cash.

It would just amplify the damage to both sides and make the end relationship even worse than it is now . Which ever way it went.

The bulk of the damage to both sides is done already.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:47
  #6586 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
What would the question be? Looking at what you have written it would be to accept TM's deal or cancel Brexit?

What if someone does not want either? What if they don't want to be tied into a deal where the EU have to agree that the UK can leave at some unspecified date in the future, but they also don't want to stay in the EU? Should there be a third option, a no deal Brexit option? That would then split the Brexit vote between 2 options and whilst their would be only one remain option. The question has to be a binary in or out, like the first referendum.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:01
  #6587 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Per say it's not scared of another ref because I also think it will be the same as the last one.

It's just such a waste of time and effort and cash.

It would just amplify the damage to both sides and make the end relationship even worse than it is now . Which ever way it went.

The bulk of the damage to both sides is done already.
I think you're absolutely right, it would just waste yet more time and money.

Although I voted to leave, I've never, ever, been a hard-line leaver, I just felt that, on balance, the UK would be marginally better off outwith the EU, for a host of reasons associated mainly with my own experience of trying to work within EU regulatory groups. My view has always been, and still is, that I would welcome the UK remaining within a Common Market, the things that I object to most are the Federalist ambitions of the EU, the staggering level of financial incompetence within the EU Commission and the incompetence of EU regulatory bodies (I could easily suggest they were corrupt, having seen first hand how prominent business interests in the major EU states manage to get regulations worded in a way that suits their own business interests).

As ORAC has succinctly pointed out, it looks as if we are at risk of crashing out anyway, now that our wholly incompetent government has screwed things up, aided and abetted by the incompetence and self-interest of every member of parliament that has helped to turn Westminster into a global laughing stock.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:12
  #6588 (permalink)  
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:22
  #6589 (permalink)  
 
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looking at the rest of the tweets today from the FT....

You can see which side of the fence they sit

And why Nikkel hasn't announced its moving its office out of London yet?
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:22
  #6590 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Legally, perhaps. But not practical in the available time.
It would take May seconds to sign the letter - there's time for that, and I have no doubt that the civil service have drafted one ready.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:31
  #6591 (permalink)  
 
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She could write a letter and break the law. Plus some of us would instantly get the credit card out to fund a court case saying it was illegal to issue such a letter and it was null and void.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:33
  #6592 (permalink)  
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But she won’t.......

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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:57
  #6593 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
She could write a letter and break the law.
Which law would that be?

You are also no doubt aware of the legal opinion floating around that we need a decision of parliament to leave, and there hasn't been one, so if there isn't one by 2300 on 29th then A50 will just lapse? This one hasn't been tested in court yet but if it comes to it the crowdfunding won't be a problem.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:09
  #6594 (permalink)  
 
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You are also no doubt aware of the legal opinion floating around that we need a decision of parliament to leave
We already had one, not that Bercow would disallow a second go at exactly the same thing in this instance
being the biased little [email protected] disguised as an impartial overseer that he is.
The Remainers will use every trick in the book, it's their nature, foul creatures.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:13
  #6595 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
You are also no doubt aware of the legal opinion floating around that we need a decision of parliament to leave, and there hasn't been one, so if there isn't one by 2300 on 29th then A50 will just lapse?
Surely Parliament did decide when they passed the The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 by a majority of 494 to 122. As soon as Article 50 was invoked, as decided would be the case when they passed the Act, there was a legal time-line of 2 years to the date on which we would leave, unless there was an agreed extension between the UK Government and the EU-27.

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Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:13
  #6596 (permalink)  
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We had a decision to leave, it’s written into the Act - and delivered to the EU who accepted it. Please note their is nothing in A50 about confirmation or lapses. The only path under EU law is confirmation of the WA or revocation, and even revocation is now legally constrained thanks to the Scots.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:34
  #6597 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

If this is to be believed it could make next week interesting, my bet if Westminster did turn the deal down, or Bercow will not allow it to be put to the vote as it has not been changed as he said it must be, then the EU will retract that statement and allow an extension if it means they can keep their hands on the money, I cannot see the EU allowing the UK to no deal exit.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:34
  #6598 (permalink)  
 
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There is also the UK law that states it leaves on the 29th of March. Which would need repealed or superceded by another act of parliament both of which would need to go through the lord's back to the house and to the queen.

Anyway it's just the final acts of the bluff we are seeing acted out. If they wait until the last day before they agree to an extension I can't see how they can get everything through to get the UK law change.

We shall see what happens. I suspect neither side is going to be happy come Friday
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 21:08
  #6599 (permalink)  
 
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As for Stupid Woman-Corbyn was right about one thing in this fiasco the opening few lines say it all

Three years ago ..

Yes three years ago we voted about something 99% of the population knew nothing about apart from what the daily Mail told itss readers. Three eyars on we all know far more and the claims it was all going to be easy lie in dust on the floor of Westminster

So why no second referendum , there were two in the 70s just two years apart= , one to join and the other to say-obviously people were more sensible in the 1970s -well we have been members for 2 years do we carry on. Apparently that was possible in the mid 70s but not now.

The sole reason why there is no second referendum is that the quitters will lose and those behind it will lose a lot of money-and the ones who took the Russian money may lose even more .

Organising another referendum is dead easy-easier than a general election which can be done and dusted in a month so you just have to wonder why. THREE YEARS ago , we have no trade deals no clean way of leaving ( walking away without paying whats due would be a lawyers birthday to say nothing of no one ever wanting to do business with the UK again ever. for me its not so much the EU is great but its far better than Americas poodle state in Europe and far better than the conservative right who will do just about anything to retain privilege and wealth even if 90% of the country suffer for it.
And yes it is true 17m people voted to leave but 16 and a bit million voted to stay and you cannot just ignore that number of people and they pay most of the tax in this country based on earnings demographics educational standards etc .
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 21:15
  #6600 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
And yes it is true 17m people voted to leave but 16 and a bit million voted to stay
I like the way you round down the leave vote from 17.4m to "17m people", but then make the 16.1m for remain "16 and a bit million"

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