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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:21
  #6561 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Nah its just most people are bored with talking with a brick wall on both sides. So they just give up, some of us get mild entertainment watching the ups and downs of people thinking they have changed things to the way they want.

Realistically there are very few that can be bothered talking about it.

As has been said many times its not as if the discussions are going to change anything.
I agree wholeheartedly, but there does seem to be a bunch of hardcore revolutionaries who are intent on using any and every means possible to overturn a democratic decision, made by the whole electorate.

I can fully understand those who campaign long after a GE, given that our first past the post system almost always results in a government being elected by a minority of the electorate, but trying to overturn a referendum result seems to me to be bordering on anarchy. What's worse is that it seems to be people who strongly supported proportional representation that are trying to disrupt the the Brexit process and overturn the will of the people. You cannot really get a more proportional voting system than a referendum, especially one that had a relatively high voter turn out (around 72%, more than any GE in the past 20 years), so of all political groupings in the UK I would have thought that the supporters of PR would have been the first to defend the outcome, even if they didn't agree with it.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:32
  #6562 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I can fully understand those who campaign long after a GE
Well, yes, the next GE campaign starts on the Friday. No reason that shouldn't be the same for referenda - the leavers did it last time, hardly a surprise if the remainers do it this time.
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
so of all political groupings in the UK I would have thought that the supporters of PR would have been the first to defend the outcome, even if they didn't agree with it.
Trouble is we also like clean elections (I've even given up weeks of my time helping ensure that elections in other parts of the world are clean), and we would seek to overturn the result of any criminal election.

The courts have agreed that this referendum was criminal, but the reason they haven't overturned the result is that there wasn't any result to overturn - the referendum was not binding, it was just an opinion poll, it didn't take any decision, so there is no decision for the courts to overturn.

One of those cases that remind us that "the law doesn't have to make sense".
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:36
  #6563 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I agree wholeheartedly, but there does seem to be a bunch of hardcore revolutionaries who are intent on using any and every means possible to overturn a democratic decision, made by the whole electorate.

I can fully understand those who campaign long after a GE, given that our first past the post system almost always results in a government being elected by a minority of the electorate, but trying to overturn a referendum result seems to me to be bordering on anarchy. What's worse is that it seems to be people who strongly supported proportional representation that are trying to disrupt the the Brexit process and overturn the will of the people. You cannot really get a more proportional voting system than a referendum, especially one that had a relatively high voter turn out (around 72%, more than any GE in the past 20 years), so of all political groupings in the UK I would have thought that the supporters of PR would have been the first to defend the outcome, even if they didn't agree with it.
Well it's too late now for Brexit to be overturned so that's all academic.
.
And I think Theresa is going to come home with what she actually now wants - for the EU to tell her to take the deal with a short delay, or leave next week.
She can then qualify for a new motion that will get past Bercow, and leave it to the Commons. Parliament will then be under huge pressure to accept the deal, and if they don't she can blame them for the inevitable crash out. "I did my best - it was those disloyal MPs who let you all down."
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:40
  #6564 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
there wasn't any result to overturn - the referendum was not binding, it was just an opinon poll, it didn't take any decision, so there is no decision for the courts to overturn.
So, using their superior intellect, and knowing that the electorate had made the wrong decision, our elected representatives made the only logical decision.

Back Brexit or lose their seats.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:48
  #6565 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Well it's too late now for Brexit to be overturned so that's all academic.
You are wrong. The CJEU has ruled otherwise.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:49
  #6566 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
So, using their superior intellect, and knowing that the electorate had made the wrong decision, our elected representatives made the only logical decision.

Back Brexit or lose their seats.
WGAS about whether any particular MP has a seat or not, or whether any particular party is in government or not? #brexit is rather more serious than those domestic details. Some MPs are admitting this out loud, many more know it but haven't opened their mouths to say so (yet).
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:58
  #6567 (permalink)  
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Gertie, I was referring to their pronouncements immediately following the referendum. Or in the case of Call Me Dave before the referendum.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:01
  #6568 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Trouble is we also like clean elections (I've even given up weeks of my time helping ensure that elections in other parts of the world are clean), and we would seek to overturn the result of any criminal election.

The courts have agreed that this referendum was criminal, but the reason they haven't overturned the result is that there wasn't any result to overturn - the referendum was not binding, it was just an opinion poll, it didn't take any decision, so there is no decision for the courts to overturn.

One of those cases that remind us that "the law doesn't have to make sense".
I can find no reference to the referendum itself being criminal anywhere. There are a few references to well-publicised transgressions about spending, and more importantly the failure of the Electoral Commission to give correct advice to campaigners, having been specifically asked for advice by them.

What is the specific criminal charge that has been brought against the referendum itself (not the spending transgressions, they seem to relate to incorrect advice from the Electoral Commission)?

If there is an outstanding criminal charge, why haven't the individuals responsible been prosecuted (and I'm aware of the campaign expenses charges, as above they seem to relate to the incompetence of the Electoral Commission)?

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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:03
  #6569 (permalink)  
 
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to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:15
  #6570 (permalink)  
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:20
  #6571 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
You are wrong. The CJEU has ruled otherwise.


Precisely why millions of us, not just in the UK but all around Europe, want out of the EU.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:20
  #6572 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
You are wrong. The CJEU has ruled otherwise.
Legally, perhaps. But not practical in the available time.

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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:21
  #6573 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
They won't give you their real answer, which is that they are sh1t scared they'll lose their prize. Instead you'll get the usual mantras about 17.4m people voted for it, 52% etc etc. Personally, I don't believe you can ever have too much democracy. Leavers appear to believe that democracy (so far as Brexit is concerned) ended on 23.6.16 when the polls closed.

For what it's worth, I would have liked another referendum, based on the deal that TM got, or remain, however I am not in the least convinced that my side would have won. I write in the past tense, as I believe that democratic vote is now not available to us.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:22
  #6574 (permalink)  
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If the WA is voted down, the UK leaves the EU on Friday 29th at 11pm.

to those who think that the UK can revoke A50 before Friday to enable further negotiations, May I refer them to the conditions laid down by the ECJ when they give their ruling on the Scottish request for clarification of whether A50 could be revoked. They catered for specially such an eventuality.

How could the UK revoke Article 50?


The revocation of Article 50 itself must be “submitted in writing to the European Council”, and it must be “unequivocal and unconditional”. That the revocation must be unequivocal implies that the UK could not revoke to get a breathing space in order to prepare better to resend the Article 50 notification in due course.......





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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:30
  #6575 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
I'm not convinced that's the case. The question of how to word any such referendum would be challenging to answer though, as would finding the time needed to organise a referendum before the new deadline that's been requested.

It seems clear that, over the past couple of years, those who supported remaining within the EU have fought an extremely effective campaign to get the referendum result overturned, using any and every trick possible. The same perseverance doesn't seem to have spurred the leave supporters to do anything much, perhaps because the leave campaign "organisers" were a disorganised and largely dysfunctional collection of groups that didn't actually agree with each other on anything, other than leaving the EU. I wonder what a microscope turned on to the remain campaign might find?

No one on the leave side seems to have been sufficiently well-organised to mount a campaign as effectively as the remainers have against various leave campaigners, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all was roses within the remain campaign. Reading some of the comments here from hard-line remainers indicates that some might go to practically any lengths in order to get the decision overturned, including giving misleading information, making personal attacks on individuals who hold a view that doesn't align with their own and regularly being vulgar and abusive.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:32
  #6576 (permalink)  
 
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Per say it's not scared of another ref because I also think it will be the same as the last one.

It's just such a waste of time and effort and cash.

It would just amplify the damage to both sides and make the end relationship even worse than it is now . Which ever way it went.

The bulk of the damage to both sides is done already.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:47
  #6577 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scr1 View Post
to all of the brexiters on here why are you so scared of another referendum on TM's deal???
What would the question be? Looking at what you have written it would be to accept TM's deal or cancel Brexit?

What if someone does not want either? What if they don't want to be tied into a deal where the EU have to agree that the UK can leave at some unspecified date in the future, but they also don't want to stay in the EU? Should there be a third option, a no deal Brexit option? That would then split the Brexit vote between 2 options and whilst their would be only one remain option. The question has to be a binary in or out, like the first referendum.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:01
  #6578 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
Per say it's not scared of another ref because I also think it will be the same as the last one.

It's just such a waste of time and effort and cash.

It would just amplify the damage to both sides and make the end relationship even worse than it is now . Which ever way it went.

The bulk of the damage to both sides is done already.
I think you're absolutely right, it would just waste yet more time and money.

Although I voted to leave, I've never, ever, been a hard-line leaver, I just felt that, on balance, the UK would be marginally better off outwith the EU, for a host of reasons associated mainly with my own experience of trying to work within EU regulatory groups. My view has always been, and still is, that I would welcome the UK remaining within a Common Market, the things that I object to most are the Federalist ambitions of the EU, the staggering level of financial incompetence within the EU Commission and the incompetence of EU regulatory bodies (I could easily suggest they were corrupt, having seen first hand how prominent business interests in the major EU states manage to get regulations worded in a way that suits their own business interests).

As ORAC has succinctly pointed out, it looks as if we are at risk of crashing out anyway, now that our wholly incompetent government has screwed things up, aided and abetted by the incompetence and self-interest of every member of parliament that has helped to turn Westminster into a global laughing stock.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:12
  #6579 (permalink)  
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:22
  #6580 (permalink)  
 
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looking at the rest of the tweets today from the FT....

You can see which side of the fence they sit

And why Nikkel hasn't announced its moving its office out of London yet?
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