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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 15th Mar 2019, 11:03
  #6241 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Is cancellation viable in the time left?
Yes. Send a letter to leave. Send a letter to call the whole thing off.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 11:24
  #6242 (permalink)  
 
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“Government does precisely that...”. No it doesn’t. According to the article you posted the main financial hit is being taken by a New York hedge fund. And my heart bleeds for them!
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 11:39
  #6243 (permalink)  
 
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But to send that letter legal requires an act of parliament to be repealed which requires it to go to the house then to the lord's then back to the house then to the queen.

That's after the house votes for it in the first place.

Then we get into the fun and games of being in a club that we have been fighting with for the last 3 years that wants to progress in a direction that the UK doesn't and knows fine that as soon as it starts then the UK will have extreme pressure to leave again.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 12:06
  #6244 (permalink)  
 
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The second part of that is irrelevant & the first is irrelevant. If we decide to revoke, then the clock stops. That's it. You are making the argument that Brexit must happen because it can't be stopped which as discussed here earlier this week is entirely unpersuasive, It's sort of more an expression of your fears really, which is understandable but nevertheless, it stands up like a fart in the wind.

Whether we reach that point is another matter entirely, Clearly it is now the only rational course of action, but this is Brexit, The SS Rational sailed years ago.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 12:31
  #6245 (permalink)  
 
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I am not making an argument either way to be honest.

The clock does not stop or get extended until the process for stopping/extending it is complete.

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Old 15th Mar 2019, 12:32
  #6246 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8823836.html

Brexit: Cabinet unity crumbles as eight top ministers refuse to back Theresa May's Article 50 extension

The unity of Theresa May’s cabinet has publicly crumbled after eight of her most senior ministers refused to back her plan to delay Brexit by three months. Those who failed to support it included the prime minister’s Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay, who was joined by 187 other Conservative MPs and frontbenchers in voting against her approach
That would be the same Stephen Barclay who made the closing speech for the government in favour of the motion. I quote Hansard: “It is time for this House to act in the national interest. It is time to put forward an extension that is realistic. I commend the Government motion to the House.”

Yet another entry in the Brexit bumper book of “You could not make it up”!
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 12:57
  #6247 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
“Government does precisely that...”. No it doesn’t. According to the article you posted the main financial hit is being taken by a New York hedge fund. And my heart bleeds for them!
So does mine, profusely as you can imagine......however....just one minor point which you seem to have overlooked....Gov't generosity to failed, well avaricious to be more precise, privatisation ventures has been going on for some considerable time even if this latest failure, for now at least, hasn't been the recipient .

Here's a helpful list to revive your memory....

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...tion-austerity
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 13:07
  #6248 (permalink)  
 
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I think the best interests of the EU are for the UK to accept May's deal. For reasons previously mentioned they don't really want the UK being dragged along with their political project because we will just get in the way. The WA is probably somewhat skewed in their favour, which is why the ERG dislike it so much. Right now I think any comment from the EU is for the purpose of ratcheting up the pressure on MPs to accept the deal on offer.

Regardless of what is said most don't want a no-deal exit, although both sides would survive if it happened.

For all the ridicule aimed at May for bringing the deal back a third time, I suspect there is a reasonable chance that enough Brexiteers and the DUP will hold their nose and vote for it faced with the alternatives.

Although the backstop is undesirable I can see why the EU would be minded to get out of it. We would have access to the single market, no contributions and no free movement whilst we were in it. I don't think they would want that situation to persist for too long.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 13:47
  #6249 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
I am not making an argument either way to be honest.

The clock does not stop or get extended until the process for stopping/extending it is complete.
Which is why I asked if it is viable.

Two opposing arguments.

Is there time? Would the EU agree? I know legal opinion suggests they don't have to.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 13:54
  #6250 (permalink)  
 
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Well what a pickle, just some of my musings put together from comments on various forums/media :

1. The UK wants to exit the EU, but it does not really.
2. The UK wants a deal, but not the only one on the table that the EU will accept.
3. The UK does not want ‘No Deal’, but they don’t accept the only deal on the table, so on that premise the legal position is we leave under WTO rules on the 29th, or at the end of any agreed extension, if that position remains the same.
4. We are told that there will not be another referendum by both the main parties, but we will probably have one anyway.
5. We are told there won’t be another GE until after Brexit or 2022, but we will probably have one anyway.
6. The UK wants an extension, but only three months, or 21 months, or something else in between.
7. May was supposed to be on her way out ever since she became PM, but she is still there, as despite everything, no one, probably even Corbyn wants to be PM until Brexit has been put to bed one way or the other.
8. If May did leave who would end up PM and what would they do with regard Brexit.
9. The main parties have never muted revoking Article 50 as far as I have seen, but would that be the final act after 4, 5, 6, or 8 above.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 15:33
  #6251 (permalink)  
 
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The people of the UK want to leave the EU - the politicians don't.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 15:57
  #6252 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Filler Dent View Post
The people of the UK want to leave the EU - the politicians don't.
52% of Jetblasters don't
48% of Jetblasters do, but they don't live in UK.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 16:01
  #6253 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Filler Dent View Post
The people of the UK want to leave the EU - the politicians don't.
You have no idea what the people of the UK want. You can only guess.

All you know is that back in 2016, voters chose to leave the EU by a narrow majority.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 16:17
  #6254 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
You have no idea what the people of the UK want. You can only guess.

All you know is that back in 2016, voters chose to leave the EU by a narrow majority.
That's called democracy, the current shenanigans isn't. The only good thing to possibly come out of this could be the wholesale clear out of third rate party apparatchiks on both sides of the house that have done so much to damage the country.

But I won't be holding my breath.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 17:02
  #6255 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
You have no idea what the people of the UK want. You can only guess.

All you know is that back in 2016, voters chose to leave the EU by a narrow majority.
The result of 2016 referendum was to leave, that was the majority.
For what it's worth I voted remain, but I do believe the result should be honoured.
This embarrassing shambles of a government has tried to negotiate remaining in all but name and kicking the can further down the road is just prolonging the agony.

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Old 15th Mar 2019, 17:18
  #6256 (permalink)  
 
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We, the people must not, in the light of changed circumstances & vastly superior understanding have another vote, whilst the PM goes for her third. Ah, democracy.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 17:37
  #6257 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Filler Dent View Post
The result of 2016 referendum was to leave, that was the majority.
For what it's worth I voted remain, but I do believe the result should be honoured.
This embarrassing shambles of a government has tried to negotiate remaining in all but name and kicking the can further down the road is just prolonging the agony.
I don't dispute that.

Whst I did dispute, and still do, is what you said in your post, viz. "The people of the UK want to leave the EU - the politicians don't. "

You do not know what the people want now, in 2019. You cannot justify that claim.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 17:58
  #6258 (permalink)  
 
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Personally, I don't think peoples positions have changed much.
The polls, albeit they do show a more people supporting remain prove little in my opinion.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7097261.html
Remain had a 10 point lead on the day and still lost.
One reason I think a second referendum could be a poisoned chalice.

If Cameron had done what he'd said he would do then we'd already have left.
Bottom line is, him the government and (most of) the opposition wish to remain.
They played the electorate, not realising how disconnected they were from the voters.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 18:22
  #6259 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Filler Dent View Post
The result of 2016 referendum was to leave, that was the majority.
For what it's worth I voted remain, but I do believe the result should be honoured.
This embarrassing shambles of a government has tried to negotiate remaining in all but name and kicking the can further down the road is just prolonging the agony.
+1, but I would not cry if our charlatans at Westminster cock it up and we stay in. What would upset me is the complete devastation they have wrought on party politics.

Reflect for a moment had Parliament not been broadcast on TV.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 18:28
  #6260 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I don't dispute that.

Whst I did dispute, and still do, is what you said in your post, viz. "The people of the UK wanted to leave the EU - the politicians don't. "

You do not know what the people want now, in 2019..
There you are Sally, fixed it for you. While I am still a remainer, and I am not aiming at you at all, I think the arguments would have more credibility if more care was taken in expressing views - we should pay more attention to words like could, should, would, might, may, will.

I might add I do not know and changers.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 15th Mar 2019 at 18:56.
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