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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:40
  #6141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Here's some commendable candour from a prominent leaver & ex Vote leave staff member.

https://twitter.com/OliverNorgrove

I'm now at the stage where I think if we end up not leaving it'll be a blessing. Let's face it, my side just doesn't deserve it. I'm no Remainer, I still dislike the EU and consider it to be undemocratic from top to bottom. I won't campaign for Remain. But I'm sick of being let down and embarrassed by all of this. Also I've become very frustrated with myself for the lack of consideration I showed the Northern Ireland issue a few years ago. (More on this at a later date, but I think it's actually symptomatic of something much wider than Brexit) So, I can no longer commit publicly to being a Brexiteer. I'll follow the issue and give my 2 cents, to anybody who might care about my opinion, where I can. But the pursuit for something I now consider unworkable is pointless. I refuse to be driven into madness by it all.
The UK had to, at some point, face up to this. But its political system just couldn't cope. We fought the referendum like a general election, we triggered A50 without a plan, we never understood how the EU operated nor that Brexit wasn't a standard negotiation. It's been self-deception on an almighty scale. At one point I thought, naively, that I could stand as a better example for the Leave side, but I now realise that it's hopeless. I'm never asked for input, the media cares only for those on the extreme. A recipe for disaster.
I'm quite furious tonight. With general events and with myself. I might open a bottle.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:06
  #6142 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC, Thanks for the link. I noticed that they say that 21% of respondents expressed a possible support for TiG that cohort figured nowhere in their poll. Flawed methodology at best, jiggery pokery at worst. And I am surprised that you didn't mention it.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:12
  #6143 (permalink)  
 
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I hadn't gone on to read the Brexit polling. Actually the figures flatter Leave considerably due to the exclusion of Don't Knows. When you strip those out 40/32 translates into 56/44 in favour of Remain.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:17
  #6144 (permalink)  
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And I am surprised that you didn't mention it.
I posted the link on Guido Fawkes website. I did a google search to find the underlying poll after your request/comment.

The TIG are not yet a party and have neither a national structure or candidates. The polling figures reflect their assessment of the result of a snap election in the next couple of weeks.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:17
  #6145 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CargoMatatu View Post
As a Brit living in the EU, this is like watching a car crash in slow motion knowing that you are going to be hit and injured by the debris and able to do nothing to protect yourself!
Know what you mean...we've done what we can over the last 2-3 years to mitigate the effects ( up to and including nationality/citizenship changes for some in the family) but I think now we've done all we can and it's pretty much time to adopt the brace position...

Last edited by wiggy; 13th Mar 2019 at 11:44.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:43
  #6146 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Are they willing to run around the streets shooting treasonous remainers with guns they've presumably acquired from Gavin Williamson? Since that's the thrust of this loony strand.
Stupid statement, all he said was his young(ish) relatives had voted leave and you conflate that into violence. No wonder people have divided opinions about you.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:46
  #6147 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Here's some commendable candour from a prominent leaver & ex Vote leave staff member.

https://twitter.com/OliverNorgrove

I'm now at the stage where I think if we end up not leaving it'll be a blessing. Let's face it, my side just doesn't deserve it. I'm no Remainer, I still dislike the EU and consider it to be undemocratic from top to bottom. I won't campaign for Remain. But I'm sick of being let down and embarrassed by all of this. Also I've become very frustrated with myself for the lack of consideration I showed the Northern Ireland issue a few years ago. (More on this at a later date, but I think it's actually symptomatic of something much wider than Brexit) So, I can no longer commit publicly to being a Brexiteer. I'll follow the issue and give my 2 cents, to anybody who might care about my opinion, where I can. But the pursuit for something I now consider unworkable is pointless. I refuse to be driven into madness by it all.The UK had to, at some point, face up to this. But its political system just couldn't cope. We fought the referendum like a general election, we triggered A50 without a plan, we never understood how the EU operated nor that Brexit wasn't a standard negotiation. It's been self-deception on an almighty scale. At one point I thought, naively, that I could stand as a better example for the Leave side, but I now realise that it's hopeless. I'm never asked for input, the media cares only for those on the extreme. A recipe for disaster.
I'm quite furious tonight. With general events and with myself. I might open a bottle.
I feel the same way.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:47
  #6148 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Know what you mean...we've done what we can over the last 2-3 years to mitigate the effects ( up to and including nationality/citizenship changes for some in the family) but I think now we've done all we can and it's pretty much time to adopt the brace position...
Indeed. Thanks to the sheer incompetence of this Government, the only hard fact as of now is the UK will be leaving the EU on the 29th of March.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:21
  #6149 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks to the sheer incompetence of this government AND the die-hard determination of remainers AND Corbyn’s parliamentary dirty-protest...There, fixed it for you PP
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:29
  #6150 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
Thanks to the sheer incompetence of this government AND the die-hard determination of remainers AND Corbyn’s parliamentary dirty-protest...There, fixed it for you PP
The opposition's role is to oppose. MP's are not delegates, they are there to fulfil a dual role of interpreting public opinion &serve the country's best interests. If these simple precepts are beyond you, then go & sit in the corner with Harley the challenged.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:33
  #6151 (permalink)  
 
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Serious disinformation to say that 3 million voters aged 18-24 voted Leave. This section of the uk population amounts to some 7,000,000. Of those who voted 25% voted leave - 1,750,000, turnout was 64%, so around 1,200,000.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:38
  #6152 (permalink)  
 
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Just to be clear-the leaders of the Brexit campaign are the traitors , deliberately damaging your country for personal gain and taking foreign ie Russian money to finance a campaign of lies and distortion. is about as close to treason as you can get.

And before people go on about patriotism no one in history was more patriotic than the SS , that didnt do Germany a lot of good did it. Goebbels tame newspapers full of flags and denigration of the established political and legal system resonates a bit too uncomfortably with the lies, flag waving and abuse of politicians and judges who have differing views to them of the Express and Mail

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 13:08
  #6153 (permalink)  
 
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Watching PM’s questions. Why does Corbyn insist on wearing badges like some child who has been given a ‘well done’ sticker at primary school?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 13:15
  #6154 (permalink)  
 
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Because he has never grown up. He sees it as a great thing that he has not changed any of his opinions in the last half century. It grieves me that, as a long term party member and councillor of some 14 years service I see that party now disintegrating.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 13:31
  #6155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Just to be clear-the leaders of the Brexit campaign are the traitors , deliberately damaging your country for personal gain and taking foreign ie Russian money to finance a campaign of lies and distortion. is about as close to treason as you can get.
This language is slightly hyperbolic but I wish to draw attention to events taking place in Italy. I have, over the months been heartily scorned by a good few Brexit zealots in here when pointing out that there were a LOT of unanswered questions about the role played by certain individuals in the referendum. A referendum I would remind you that a lot of the same zealots insist loudly was a transparent & fair exercise of democracy with the cherished goal of returning sovereignty to the United Kingdom.

Since we have seen clearly that the only available paths from here are revocation, no deal or extension and that extension need only be scuppered by one EU member to be ruled out as an option, please take a moment to digest this particular part of democratically taking back control.



If these suspicions are accurate, then all of today's Parliamentary machinations are for nothing. If they are accurate, what we are seeing is two people colluding with Italian fascists who are themselves European partners of Putin, plotting to undermine the UK's democratic process. You may draw your own conclusions of course but the questions must be answered if any credibility at all in this process is to remain.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 13:40
  #6156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
The opposition's role is to oppose.
No it's not. The Shadow Cabinet's role is to challenge policy, not just oppose it.

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 14:29
  #6157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Just to be clear-the leaders of the Brexit campaign are the traitors , deliberately damaging your country for personal gain and taking foreign ie Russian money to finance a campaign of lies and distortion. is about as close to treason as you can get.

And before people go on about patriotism no one in history was more patriotic than the SS , that didnt do Germany a lot of good did it. Goebbels tame newspapers full of flags and denigration of the established political and legal system resonates a bit too uncomfortably with the lies, flag waving and abuse of politicians and judges who have differing views to them of the Express and Mail
Talking of abuse.....

Plenty of posters and posts on here from EU apologists full of abuse....
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 14:29
  #6158 (permalink)  
 
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If Boris had a Brain as opposed to just animal cunning he would change sides and we would remain and he would be PM of a country that mattered a lot in Europe because of the German and French problems-he doesnt care what happens as long as he is PM

Is Liam Fox the worst minister ever of any portfolio, having failed to achieve anything in two and a half years he says we will now scrap tariffs on almost everything from almost anywhere (Huawei telecoms eqpt being first in the queue??) But there is no reciprocity at all so even the little we export will get undercut by imports , leaving us not a vassal state to the Eu but to the whole world. How on earth can he still be in a job, the PM must be insane -oh she is insane, maybe that explains it all. She is headed for a stroke if anyone ever was poor woman or must I say poor person these days. I hope she is Ok but there are lot of conservative MPs with blood on their hands if she does fall apart-the words John Major and Bastards come to mind.

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 14:32
  #6159 (permalink)  
 
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Are we there, yet, Mum?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 14:37
  #6160 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jez d View Post
No it's not. The Shadow Cabinet's role is to challenge policy, not just oppose it.
Yes it is. But it's also what you say as well as to present alternatives to a government's legislative programme. Please feel free though to pickup on the narrowest points possible, it really helps the debate along.
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